The History behind the Old Apostolic Church

The Old Apostolic Church is a Christian religious community. The Old Apostolic Church’s roots are found in the Catholic Apostolic Church, that was founded in 1832 by Henry Drummond, Edward Irving, and others.

The Old Apostolic Church was founded by Carl Georg Klibbe. Klibbe, a Lutheran minister, born in Pomerania, but later emigrated first to Scotland and then to the Australian state of Queensland. In Queensland, he joined the local branch of the Apostolic Church. In 1889, he was sent to South Africa first as Evangelist, and later as Apostle, working to establish the Apostolic communities there. Gradually, however, relations between Klibbe and the church leadership in Germany began to deteriorate — the exact reasons for this remain disputed – However the reasons are claimed to be an apparent dispute over the Changes of original doctrine within the Apostolic Church. Klibbe was officially removed from office in 1913, but continued to use the original doctrine of teaching. For some time, there were two conflicting organisations in South Africa using the name New Apostolic Church; Klibbe’s followers, and the followers of the newly appointed Apostle. Finally, in 1926, a court case regarding the rights to the name prompted Klibbe’s followers to adopt the name “Old Apostolic Church”, which they still retain. The name “Old Apostolic Church” was chosen due to Klibbe’s dedication to the original doctrine.

Apostle Klibbe died in May 1931 and was succeeded by Apostles E Ninow, C. Ninow and W. Campbell, who was appointed by Klibbe before his death.

In mid 2006 several members of the German Apostelamt Jesu Christi formed the German branch of the Old Apostolic Church.

The Old Apostolic Church is estimated to have around 1.5 million members worldwide, most of whom are in Germany, South Africa, Mosambique and Botswana. The Church remains independent from the New Apostolic Church, and did not join the United Apostolic Church.

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153 Comments

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153 responses to “The History behind the Old Apostolic Church

  1. The reason why Apostel Klibbe retain the name Old Apostolic was because something happened during the court case. One of the other members who was against Apostol Klibbe broke his leg after Apostol Klibbe told the court this would happen. See in our church if you dont listen you surely will see what attitude you should have. Lets take John and Petrus for an example. John was told that on who he sees the holy spirit ascended upon is My beloved son, yet when in jail he send out his disciples to ask Jesus if he is the Messiah or should he waits for one. Jesus answer them: Tell John what you see. Petrus on the other hand never doubt Jesus when he was in jail and in the end the angels freed him and he walk right pass the wardens. So in a nut shell: It is your attitude in the beginning of a task that determines your success or your failure. Apostol Klibbe’s attitude was in favour of our Savoiur Jesus Christ, hence the mirricle on that day. Oh in case you wonder,the court case was about money. Apostol klibbe wanted the money of Africa to stay in Africa and the traotors wanted the money to be send oversee.

  2. Zesto thank you for your story please share more in future

  3. i would love 2 read more about my church history, i live in bela bela and my apostle is Modise and i want to know how everything about him

    • Musa

      Hi everyone,I am Musa currently in Cape Town and my chief Apostol is Dlamini,I would like to know more about him.

    • onnica

      Hi Sister.It is very good that you want to know more about the church.But i don’t think it will be ok for you to inquire about the Apostle.We have to be careful of what we wish for because what you are asking for might brake or build you.Let us try to move our eyes from the things of the world because we were supposed to be not of the world but if we still focusing on the wordly things don’t you think that those things might destroy our faith.Sister Rachel,let us put our eyes on Jesus Christ as he has said that he is the way to the kingdom of God.Please becareful of the demons that want to pull you in their teritory.Let us stay were God wants us to be,so that we don’t end up like most of the people that Moses took out from Egypt(They didn’t get to Kanana – the promise land) because they lost focuse on what they were promised.May the Lord guid you & protect you.Love you

  4. Maitumelo

    am very thankful to this website. it teach people about OAC. AM ALSO A MEMBER

  5. former old apostolic member

    I just have one question. Where did “Apostle” Klibbe get his authority from? If your answer can not be supported by scriptures, please explain who/what your source is and why it can be trusted?

    • “Where did Apostle Klibbe get his authority from?” Well i suppose he is gone now to answer that question…but maybe from the same place where all the other church leaders of today got theirs from

      • former old apostolic member

        So how do you know that Klibbe received the Holy Spirit? Who baptized him? Did Christ give him the authority? Where is the prove?

        Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me” . 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

        In verse 20 Jesus told them to go teach the world His commandments(not the apostles commands). Other(not all) church leaders get their authority from the Word of God/Christ which is written in The Bible. The Gospel is complete in the Bible.

        Since Christ is no longer personally with us in the physical body, He placed His supreme authority that He received from His Father in Heaven, in HIS WORD. “…the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48).

        2 Timothy 3: 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

        Does the word of the apostle carry more weight than the Bible ?

      • Confused Apostolic Member

        Dedicated OAC Member:

        Dedicated OAC Member:

        When you say “church leaders”, what are you implying? Do you mean church leaders as in church leaders from other doctrines including the OAC or just exclusively the OAC?

        If you are referring to the former (which, by the way, I think you are) then how can you support that statement when the OAC allegedly claims that our doctrine is the only road to soul salvation? How can other church leaders from other doctrines begin to even compare to the OAC in terms of, “where all the other church leaders of today got theirs from”?

        As Former Old Apostolic Member has asked, I too ask again, where did Apostle Klibbe get his authority from?

        Regards,

        Confused Old Apostolic Memeber

      • Blackheath Congregation

        If you are confused, go and speak to your Priest,i can asure you that he is waiting for you.

    • why do you wana question GOD?

      • Blackheath Congregation

        How can this be,here is so many that claims that they are former members of the OAC, dont you know that once an apostolic always an apostolic. Im so ,so sure that you so called former members have in the beginning had that fire of desire to serve God, now the fire has burnt out and you refude to light it again. There is only one front door into His Kingdom and if you think you coming in through the windows or back door, you are mistaken. Its ice,ice ,ice cold outside this house so cold that they who are stuck outside wishes that Hell realy was hot like a fire. Go to your Priest before its to late brothers and sisters

    • Zesto

      Read Romans Chapter 1 verse 5 should clear this up for you. If not also chapter 11

  6. Interested Reader

    Dedicated OAC Member: where do they get the authority from?

    former old apostolic member: surely you are not questioning an apostle of Jesus, what gives you the rite to question them?

  7. former old apostolic member

    1 John 4:1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    Matthew 24:5 “For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.”

    I will not question God, but will test everyone who claims that he was sent by Him.

  8. former old apostolic member

    Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits.

    2 Peter2:1But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

    2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

    It is important for all old apostolic members to test these spirits. Be aware of them. As you can see, the scriptures warns us that there is a very thin line between the truth and a lie.

    Let’s create this scenario: Tomorrow morning when I wake up, I will claim that I am an apostle sent by Christ. I will take some scriptures and manipulate them to prove that it is possible that the apostleship can be continued by me. I start getting some followers, promising them that they will be an officer for the Lord. In one decade from now, I will be dead, but will have 1 000’s of followers. Now let’s ask a couple of questions to the last generation of my followers. Let’s ask them who was the initiator of this religion and where did he get his authority from? How can you prove that he is an apostle sent by Christ? If they answer “Well i suppose he is gone now to answer that question.” , do you think that will change the fact that this religion is genuine or not? No. It won’t change anything. It won’t change the fact that the founder is a genuine apostle or not. The followers will still continue with this doctrine, because they believe in it and many who are born in this religion will follow the tradition of their forefathers.

    Is it possible that the scenario above could be what Klibbe did ? I’m not saying it is. I’m asking, could it be possible?

    • Petrus

      When Jesus came to earth in the past the people did not want to beleave that he was the son of God can you truly tell me that they will beleive if he should come again today?Do you beleive God,s creation is forever or let me say that everything that God put there or done is there for ever

  9. Interested Reader

    former old apostolic member: well said, I will test these people. So are you saying there cant still be apostles today?

  10. former old apostolic member

    What will the purpose of apostles be today? First, let’s look at the apostle’s purpose in Jesus’s time(before we had the Gospel written in the Bible). Let’s look at Mark 16:20 “Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.” Jesus installed apostles in His church to spread the Gospel. He confirmed this to the world by signs…hence, the miracles the apostles could perform. Jesus knew He was not going to be here for long, that is why He needed people (apostles/disciples) to further the Gospel. Otherwise Jesus would have lived longer to do it Himself, but this was no option, because we all know that He had to be crucified.

    In Matthew 16:19 when Jesus said He will give them the keys of the kingdom of heaven, He was talking about His church, the Gospel. To proclaim or to open up/unlock/reveal the Gospel to the world so that everyone may have access to salvation and he/she who accepts it will enter the kingdom.

    Before Christ, the old law was written down. Even Jesus quoted the scriptures in Matthew 4:4Jesus answered, “It is written: ” .

    Today, we have the Word of God, the Gospel completed in the Bible. The Gospel( the new law/ covenant) is written. This is the guide to salvation.

  11. Interested Reader

    former old apostolic member: well apostle means messenger or one who is sent, so they could be apostles but in the sense of Peter and Paul.

    Apostle 1 : one sent on a mission

    Also isn’t it Jesus who personally picked the apostles, including Paul? Matthias was with Jesus the whole time and they cast lots and prayed Jesus must show them the one that He chose.

    Acts 1:21So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias. 24And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    So I see your point, there can’t be apostles today like Peter and Paul…also I always wondered…why did Jesus just pick 12?

  12. member OAC

    if the apostles dont exist then why did Jesus say,’go therefore nd make disciples of all nations,Matthew 28vs19.It is quite clear and common sense that as more and more people became disciples some of them will become apostles.After all Jesus instructed them and gave them authority.

  13. member OAC

    by the way there was a time when Jesus had 70 disciples,many of them chose not to be with Him anymore.”From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more”John 6vs66.If you read the Acts24 you will see that the Apostles prayed to the Lord to reveal which one the Lord had chosen to become the Apostle.If the Apostle dont exist then its like saying Christ no longer exists,since they are the only ones who have authority to preach the word.My brothers and sisters please read the scriptures.From John17vs9 its clear Jesus is only praying for the Apostles not everyone.If you chose to ignore the words in that verse it means you intensionally ignore what Jesus.vs20 I do not pray for these alone,but also for those who believe in me through their word”.Which means if you believe the word of the Apostles you believe in Jesus.Jesus never said just by reading the word you believe in him,because if you dont believe the Apostles you dont believe in Him.

    • Cornfused Old Apstolic Member

      Memeber OAC:

      Based on what you say below:

      “by the way there was a time when Jesus had 70 disciples,many of them chose not to be with Him anymore.”From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more”John 6vs66”

      How is this a spiritual translation of this text? This is a literal interpretation.

      You keep referring to the scriptures in a literal sense, please explain your rationale for repeatedly doing not referring to the scriptures in a literal sense like we preach…?

      Regards,

      Confused Old Apostolic Memeber

      • another OAC

        i wud lyk to ask you if you know what a human being is if thre s dout then go to ur undrcon or priest he will explain better. and after this dont expct to understand evythin at once it takes time. most mistakes tht some members do is try to learn learn calculas b4 mastering addition

  14. Interested Reader

    member OAC: Hi, good reply but Jesus didn’t say make apostles, he said disciples. Anyone can be a disciple.

    Remember Jesus only chose 12 apostles from all the men that followed him…Why? When Judas fell he had to be replaced….again why? There were 2 candidates, why choose between the 2? Why not take both since they both clearly matched all the criteria?

    Now, when Judas fell we have an account of him being replaced (Acts 1:21-26) but no name of any person that was to be chosen to succeed any of the apostles when they died…again why not?

    Apostles are not the only ones who can preach the word, any disciple can. Paul tells Timothy to preach the word in season and out of season(2 Tim 4:2) and also to teach others who intern can teach others(2 Timothy 2:2).

    John 17:8-10, yes Jesus was only praying for the apostles and we do have their words today, its in the Bible my friend and anyone can read the words that Peter and Paul penned today.

    Acts 8: 4Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word. 5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ….Philip was not an apostle(Acts 6:5).

    Do you have to listen to apostles from other churches as well?

  15. member OAC

    i think im no longer going to comment again.God’s gospel is not preachd lyk this.The pharasees where always againt Christ.The heading says Acts of the Apostles in the first chapter.In Acts6vs 2 its clear that Phillip was the disciple who was appointed to go and preach the gospel.If you read Timothy very carefully you will realise that He received the word from Apostle Paul.Read what Apostle Paul to the Ephisians especially chapter2vs19 to the last verse.Lastly when an Apostle dies another one is chosen through the revelation of the Holy Spirit the same way Judas was replaced. Who said when they died they wont be replaced.We wont be deceived into thinking all the multitude of disciples died at ones when the Apostles died and all of a sudden the Apostleship is now dead,that type of teaching would be misleading.Brothers and Sisters we are only telling the thruth as it is,we dont force anybody to follow us,after all even Christ the Son of God was rejected by many.The Old Apostolic Church has been around for centuries,so not anyone who starts a Church and call it the Apostilic Church then that means that person is an Apostle.Romans 10vs14-15,”How,then,can they call on the one they have not believed in?and how can they believe in the one of who they have not heard?and how shall they believe in Him without a preacher?and how shall they preach unless they are sent?Brothers and Sisters you have to hear the word,to hear it,it must be preached to you,to preach it,you must be sent.Christ sent the Apostles,the Apostles sent their disciples.By the way,when Paul became a disciple of the Apostles and later He became the Apostle where they still 12.The Apostles where given authority,its just to show that they could appoint anyone to be Apostle,but they always pray to the Lord to show them.The new testament is there because of Apostle Paul,including other Apostles like Matthew,John,James etc.Im writting with the hope that people will read what i wrote and read the scriptures that i have highlighted with the intension to learn what is said,and not to intensional ignore what is written.There is a sea of evidence from the Bible to bear witness to what i have written,but my way of preaching is not over the internet,but it is for you to hear what im saying.I hope my words inspire you to want to learn more about our Lord Jesus Christ,not to argue.Jesus said:”He who has ears to hear,let him hear”.

  16. former old apostolic member

    I have to disagree when you say that God’s word cannot be preached like this. Even Paul wrote letters. Thousands of people have been converted via internet evangelism.

    You mentioned “God’s gospel is not preachd lyk this”. Does that mean you are preaching? In your previous comment, you said that only apostles can preach the Gospel. Are you an apostle?

    “The Old Apostolic Church has been around for centuries”???….. there is no truth in this.

    My question still was not answered. We all know that Jesus gave His apostles the authority, but who gave Klibbe the authority?

    You said: “so not anyone who starts a Church and call it the Apostilic Church then that means that person is an Apostle.” Well….I think this is exactly what Klibbe did. Another interesting question from “interested reader” was “Do you have to listen to apostles from other churches as well?”

    Is there any one out there that can answer these questions?

  17. Interested Reader

    member OAC: Acts 17:10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

    You see you need to check if what is being said is according to scripture. The people of Berea didn’t just accept what Paul(an apostle) said.

    Oh and I am glad you brought up the subject of Paul. Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus also Paul didn’t write Acts, Luke wrote it so Luke verifies that Paul was appointed an apostle by Jesus Himself.

    Acts 1:21So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”

    Matthias had to have seen Jesus after the resurrection otherwise how could he have been a witness to something he didn’t see?

    1 Cor 15:3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

    Notice vs 7-9, Jesus appeared to Paul last of all, so he could be a witness to the resurrection. Did Jesus appear to any of the apostles of today or in the last 500 years even? Nothing in scripture indicates that.

    Just because we oppose what you say doesn’t mean we are wrong and you are right, in the same way when Jesus opposed the pharisees it didn’t mean they were right.

    My friend all we want to do is search the Bible for the truth and I know you also want to know the truth.

  18. B lantina kumi Moleli

    Thank you very much 4 sharing that story with us, it is very important for us to know the roots of our church.And about those former members who are angry at the church, im sure u know that there isnt any other truth that u will ever receive so yuo better make a good choice and come back.

    • former old apostolic member

      B lantina kumi Moleli: I used to say the same thing about other former old apostolics, because that is one of the first things they teach you. Believe me when I say that I understand your dedicated spirit towards the OAC.

      I am not angry at the church. There is only one true church my friend. That is the Church that Christ planted. The way to learn about the true church is to STUDY the scriptures.

      It is the Scriptures that points out the errors of OAC and not me. That is how I found the truth and I am sure many of you will find it.

      I pray a lot for the members of the OAC and I pray that our Father may bless you and reveal His truth to you.

      Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people LOVE it this way.But what will you do in the end?

      2 Thesselonians 2:11-12 For this reason God sends them a powerful DELUSION so that they will BELIEVE the LIE and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

      PS: If you can give valid answers for my questions and prove it, I will come back. 🙂 Until then, the only truth I know is John 14:6 – “Jesus answered: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”

  19. Interested Reader

    B lantina kumi Moleli: Anyone with a Bible has the truth but its what you do with it that shows if you know the truth.

    Look at Judas, he saw the same miracles that the others saw and he heard the same words. He had the same opportunity as the rest of the disciples but he chose ignore the truth(Jesus) and follow a lie(satan).

    Today it is the same, many people have a Bible but they ignore what it says to follow men. Its your choice what you want to do.

    The question is: What about those who claim to be apostles outside the OAC, do you have to listen to what they say? Or give us proof that your “apostles” are to be trusted over those outside the OAC.

    Please read and pay careful attention to the following scriptures: Matt 7:15-23, 2 Thess 2:1-12, 2 Tim 4:1-4, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Tim 3:15-17

  20. member OAC

    Our friend believes that to have faith you must first see,like Thomas,and from the comments i can sense that no effort was taken to refer to the scriptures i have highlighted.Who says that you have to see Jesus to become an Apostle,I think thats your opinion,not the absolute truth.The bible is there for everyone to read,learn,refer,its our guidline.There is no disputing what Romans10vs14-15.It also teaches that faith comes by hearing,the word of God.You cannot just read the bible and say you have faith.James2vs17thus also faith by itself,if it does not have works is dead.vs20but do you want to know,O foolish man,that faith without works is dead?vs19You believe that there is one God.You do well.Even the demons believe and tremble.So lets not mislead that if they read the bible then they have faith.I agree those great men wrote the bible,but it help us to refer back when we meet people who act like pharisees.My friend you have to go and preach the gospel like Jesus,the Apostles and the disciples that were sent by the Apostles.There is no avoiding what Romans10vs14-15 says,like it or not,its there and its crystal clear.If you want to be convinced,i think you know where to meet OAC members,as a estranged member.You can get the whole information about OAC,even the whole truth about the origin not the half truths.Even the pharisees saw Jesus but they never became Apostles,many people saw Jesus but never became Apostles,they even crucified Him.The devil also saw Jesus when it tested Him,and it never became an Apostle.That you must see Jesus before you become an Apostle is nothing else but an assumption,that i have heard being used by a certain Christian group who are anti OAC.

  21. Interested Reader

    member OAC:
    1. Your friend did not say to have faith you must see Jesus.
    John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    2. The Bible says to be an apostle you must have seen Jesus and been appointed by Him. Of course not everyone who saw Jesus became an apostle because He didn’t appoint them as one. We know that Jesus appointed the 12 as well as Matthias and Paul. Where is the proof that any apostle today was chosen by Jesus?
    1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? 2If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

    3. On Rom 10:14-15, if you read the Bible out loud you would be hearing the word of God, would you not? But even if you don’t read out loud you are still in a sence hearing the word of God because your mind comprehends what is being read. Those verses mean preaching to those who have not even heard about Jesus. Which is right but after you have heard and accepted the Gospel by believing,repenting,confessing and baptism by immersion you need to learn and the Bible teaches you how to live a Godly life.

    2 Timothy 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

    4. I agree that you have to go preach the Gospel but you don’t need an apostle to do that. Any believer can study the Bible and teach someone else. How did Jesus stand up against satan when tempted? He said each time “It is written”.
    2 Timothy 2:15(King James Version)Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

    Psalm 138:2 I bow down toward Your holy temple and give thanks to Your name for Your steadfast love and Your faithfulness, for You have exalted
    above all things Your name and Your word.

    Question: What is the word of God?
    Question: How are apostles chosen in the OAC? or Where in the Bible does it state the process of selecting and apostle?

    • Confused Apostolic Member

      Interested reader:

      What is the word of God?

      I could be wrong but from my understanding it is basically the flow of testimony that is uttered from our mouths when we are engaged in the righteous deeds. God uses our natural bodies as instruments to go fourth and redeem souls via the word flowing from our mouths.

      How are Apostles chosen?

      Again from my understanding, Apostles are chosen via the spiritual and/or natural interpretation of gifts that are received from the members of the church i.e. dreams, visions and prophecies.

      I don’t have any evidence from the scriptures to support what i have said though.

    • Petrus

      Show me the Jesus of today and i will tell you were the Apostle of today get his authority from.

  22. Confused Old Apostolic Member

    Even though I am a member of the OAC, I still continue to have more questions than answers.

    Why can men be only officers in the church and not woman? Where is the spiritual significance of this in the scriptures?

    I was told to refer to 1Tim2:1-19 and I will have my answer. However, to me, in this instance, this is a literal meaning rather than spiritual one. I thought that this doctrine preaches that it only interprets the scriptures spiritually?

    An Under Deacon even told me to refer to Genesis regarding the creation. And he stated that woman can not be officers because God created Adam before Eve. Ahhhhh, wait, hold on a second…..isn’t genesis about a spiritual creation? Again, this seems like another literal interpretation.

    Why do people who are born into the religion have to be confirmed at age 16? Again, where is the spiritual significance of being confirmed at age 16 in the scriptures?

    If a person is making a covenant to the Lord, shouldn’t an individual have the right to decide when they feel they are ready to make that commitment themselves?

    I have asked this question before and the only answer I have received to date is that it is assumed that a 16 year old is old enough to understand the covenant he or she is making. Is this a decision made by man or is this spiritual?

    My opinion thus far of the OAC is that things are manipulated and contradicted in order for things to make sense.

  23. member OAC

    John4vs24God is Spirit,and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.Why did Jesus say,vs22 You worship what you do not know,we know what we worship,for salvation is of the Jews.Why do so many Christians still pray the Lord even if they are not Jews.Most Christian dont even have a clue about the Jewish way of life or even bother about the way they worshiped God.And there is also a the holy city Jerusalem,is Jerusalem going to be the most holy city,coming from from heaven.Im telling those questions i have asked need a person who worships God spiritually,because their answers are spiritual,not literal.What i want to educate my fellow Christians who talk about being a witness to Jesus’s resurrection is that even they should become witnesses to Jesus’s resurrection,otherwise they are fake Christian,if you are a true Christian you cannot say i am not a witness to Jesus’s resurrection.Matthias was also a disciple before he became an Apostle.When he was appointed,the Apostles prayed to the Lord,and cast their lots,and the lot fell on Matthias.Jesus was not physically there to appoint Matthias.Why were they quite sure that Matthias was the right one?Let me tell you,because they already had the authority,Jesus gave them that authority,but they never forgot to pray even though they had that authority.So tell me were is the bible saying Matthias was chosen by Jesus.Unless you explain in a spiritual context,then you are on good track,because God wants us to worship Him spiritually.This scripture can give a picture,John14vs7 if you had known Me,you would have known My Father also,and from now on you know and have seen him.vs8 Phillip said to Him,”Lord show us the Father.vs9 Jesus said to him,”have I been with you so long,and yet you have not known Me,Phillip?He who has seen Me has seen the Father.Jesus is speaking a spiritual language here.You can recognise that His disciples did not understand at the time.We also speak a spiritual language,that why many Christian groups dont understand us,because they want to prove things literally.Jesus spoke in parables to bring the world( other people who are not his disciples) to understand the spiritual language.By the way,when you are reading the bible are you preaching to yourself,while reading aloud,are you then a preacher,so have you been sent to preach to yourself.Roman10vs14……And how shall they hear without a preacher?vs15And how shall they preach unless they are sent?Have you realised while reading Acts that the number of disciples where increasing while they were preaching,i still say the Apostles could die,but their disciples could not die at ones.Just observe Jesus’s instruction,Matthew28vs19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.It quite clear that was sending them to preach the gospel,and baptise them,and teach them to observe all things He commanded them to do.To teach you about worshiping God spiritually wont take one session or six months even a year.Its a process,so this verses i have highlited are for just bringing to your attention that some Christians are capable of misinterpreting the scriptures by not reading the chapter in full,like Roman10vs14-15.You cannot just change the meaning of a scripture like that.I can ask about a hundred of scriptures that show that people sometimes just believe without having supporting facts.They say only 144 000 people will be be saved after the end of time,while the bible says,a great multitude which no one could number,of all nations.tribes,people,and tongues were also standing before the throne and Lamb,clothed with white robes,they were shouting out loud saying,”Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne,and to the lamb” So you see an multitude which no one can count of all nations,tribes,people and tongues will worship God and the Lamb(Jesus Christ).We as spiritual worshippers of God already understand what this scripture means.Now all this other churches,how can they claim that they were sent to preach the gospel,are they the church which is the body of Christ,as stated in the scriptures in the bible.

  24. member OAC

    What gives us great pleasure is that people never believed that Jesus was the Son of God,even though He did so many great works.If you think about it Jesus could have had a lot of disciples during his preaching and teaching of the gospel,because He is the Son of God.If they refused to believe Him even though they had the luxury of seeing so many of His miracles.So how can people believe us.If you believe that we are not the generation of the Apostles through the gospel that was preached to us,then why dont you even bother to make a research about the whereabouts of their disciples.The reason being that you might have started a church somewhere in the early 1900s and have now about 150 000 members and if i find out that i dont have the authority to preach the gospel because i was not sent to preach the gospel,then i have misled a lot of people.I probably would lose some income and the status of being a leader to being the disciple of church that was started by Christ(remember the church is Christ’s body)according to the bible.He is the head of the church.Tell me why do so many people refuse to find out about the origin of their own churches and also finding out about the baptisim with the holy spirit which is truly important to be in the kingdom of God.The are so many things that people are ignoring which i find strange for people who are studying the word,that does not seize to amaze me,because some scriptures are so straight forward.No one knows our church better than us with regards to its origin.People just go and look for the last disciple who died,and with the death the end of the Apostleship.Any person,even non Christians can use their common sense,and see that its not possible for such wise and powerful men of God to just die without having left others to continue to preach the word of God.Just tell where they all killed at ones.

    • Confused Old Apostolic Member

      Member OAC:

      Member OAC, as a member of the OAC, this is what really confuses me. When you use Rom10:14 as a reference to back up what you have stated, “By the way,when you are reading the bible are you preaching to yourself,while reading aloud,are you then a preacher,so have you been sent to preach to yourself.” Are you interpreting Rom10:14 spiritually or literally? I think you are interpreting it literally. This is what I mean when I say that the OAC manipulates the scriptures.

      Again, in a former question you refer to Rom10:14-15 and state, “There is no disputing what Romans10vs14-15.It also teaches that faith comes by hearing,the word of God.You cannot just read the bible and say you have faith.” Is this not literally interpreting the bible? I thought we interpret the bible spiritually? If Rom10:14-15 is “crystal clear” like you say it is, then how (and more importantly why) would we interpret this spiritually?

      In addition you even use Jas 2:17 as another example: EvenG2532 soG3779 faith,G4102 ifG1437 it hathG2192 notG3361 works,G2041 isG2076 dead,G3498 being alone.G2596 G1438
      Again, I think this is another literal interpretation.

      Perhaps you can answer my questions:

      1. Why cant woman be officers in the church; where is the spiritual significance of this in the scriptures?
      2. Why do we have to be confirmed at age 16; where is the spiritual significance of this in the scriptures?

      Regards,

      Confused Old Apostolic Member

      • VUSI NXELE

        IN CORINTIANS 11 VES 34, THE WOMAN IN THE CHURCH MUST SEAT DOWN AND KEEP QUITE, IF THEY WANT TO KNOW SOMETHING THEY MUST ASK AT HOME

      • Confused OAC Member

        This is exactly my point I was trying to make. I have no problem with what the word of God states BUT if the Old Apostolics interpret it this way then they are contradicting how they view the scriptures because this would be looking at it from a natural standpoint rather than a spiritual perspective.

        It’s convenient for the OAC to look at things nautrally or as it is written when they prefer too and then spiritual when it suits them.

        Sorry to be blunt but this is the truth.

  25. former old apostolic member

    Confused Old Apostolic Member: I praise God for your inquiring mind. This is exactly how I found out that this doctrine contradicts the Bible.

    Regarding the role of women in the church you can also refer to 1 Corinthians 14:33-35. I would like to ask them the same question. How do you interpret that spiritually? I wonder how they decide when and which scriptures should be translated spiritually or physically?

    O….and about the creation…. It is physical. God spoke this world into existence, and there is proof that this happened.

    On the confirmation, I agree with you 200%. The Bible does not mention anything about confirmation at the age of 16. God’s Words says that only those that hear the Gospel, BELIEVES, confess, repent and be baptized will be saved. When I was confirmed, I can remember that more than 50% of us did’nt have a clue what they were doing there. Many did’nt even BELIEVE. All of us were forced to comply, because it’s tradition.

    While we on the topic of confirmation, let’s also look at the baptism of infants. How can an infant hear and believe the Gospel? Does the scriptures give us a command to baptize infants?

    I compliment your opinion. In fact I would say that it is a fact and not just an opinion. I believe that you and many others have many more questions about the OA doctrine. It would be a privilege for me to assist you and guide you to the Scriptures that will answer your questions.

    • Confused Old Apostolic Member

      Former Old Apostolic Member:

      Thank you very much for your reply, I am extremely greatful!

      I’m relieved that I’m not the only one who has the same opinion. One thing that concerns me in this doctrine, is regarding the number of different responses I have had from different members in the church regarding my question about the role of women in the OAC. Why are there so many different answers/interpretations concerning one question? I feel like I’m being overwhelmed with a whole lot of different answers until one of them eventually makes sense.

      Personally, I think I was directed to 1Tim2:1-19 as it is not as harsh as 1Co14: 33-35 regarding the women’s role but it basically illustrates the same point re: the supposed role of women in the OAC. I find it funny though, because one minute the OAC is referring to women as representing our soul (spiritually speaking) i.e. Rev12:1 and the next minute they are reverting to a literal meaning of women i.e. 1Tim2:11-12 in order to answer my question re: why woman aren’t able to be officers in the church.

      I can’t work out why most of the confusion has come directly from officers either??? I thought officers were selected based on the gifts i.e. dreams, visions and prophecies. I know officers are undergoing the process of learning however, it troubles me that there is a lot of discrepancy over one question which has probably been asked many times before.

      I have always been told when speaking to an officer/brother/sister…etc in the church we have to be careful as to who is actually speaking to us. For example, is it man speaking to us or is it God speaking through them to us. How does one distinguish one from the other? If a group of members went to the same priest for the same advice would all of those members be in agreement regarding the answer they got from the priest i.e. was it the priest speaking to you or was it man?

      Regarding your query about the baptism of infants, I would also like to know spiritual significance of this too?

      Thank you for reading and listening. I would appreciate your help regarding the matters above…

      Regards,

      Confused Apostolic Member

    • Steadfast OAC Member

      Former OAC Member:

      Where in Genesis and/or throughout the bible is there any evidence to substantiate a physical creation?

      You say that there is proof? Where is the proof? Even the geniuses throughout history have not been able to universally agree on how the physical creation took place so what makes you think that you have the answer?

      The bible is a guideline to soul salvation and how we should live our lives today. How does preaching about the creation in a physical sense help our souls or have any relevance to how we live our lives today? Did the Apostles ever preach to the world about how a physical creation took place? I think the answer is quite clear based in this text verse, Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

      Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

      How is it possible to have light and day in first day when it is only on the third day that God made the greater light (the sun) to rule the day? If you try to read and understand the creation naturally it does not make sense.

      In the OAC, we believe the creation is a spiritual understanding. Or in other words, the birth of a spiritual understanding. Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Is the light that is being discussed in versus 19-21 natural light? In the OAC light is to understand the word and darkness is to not understand. Light can only come through the flow of testimony (the water) which cleanses us and allows us to see the truth. Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,. Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

      Please be aware that I am only explaining this from an OAC perspective and how we see the light. If people have a different understanding then by all means go ahead. We do not go around preaching on a Pedder stool acting is if we are no-it-alls, we only give our perspective. In my humble opinion though, in the context of the creation, a spiritual creation makes more sense to me.

      Former OAC Member, let me ask you, does your proof that you allegedly have about the creation carry more weight than the bible?

      Regards,

      Steadfast OAC Member

  26. former old apostolic member

    Confused Old Apostolic Member:

    I agree with you 100%. You will know them by their fruits. In my case some of them were interpreted a prophecy incorrectly. The Bible warns us about this. In one case, even an APOSTLE of the church gave false testimony and false prophecy. How does that work? I thought they were men sent by God? Does God make mistakes?

    I think it is time that we communicate off this blog. I would like to introduce to you a FREE correspondence Bible study course. There are also a lot of other material I can share with you that covers the following topics: Is the Bible the true Word of God? , Did God really create this world in 7 days? , Evolution vs God, The Only way to Salvation, What must I do to get saved? Denominational churches, The history of Islam, and many more.

    You can send me an email to info@faithsheet.com and we can take it from there.

    Regards
    Former Old Apostolic Member

  27. former old apostolic member

    Deutoronomy 18: 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

    1 John 2:27 “But the Anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same Anointing teacheth you of all things, and is Truth, and is no lie, and even as It hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him”

    • Steadfast OAC Member

      Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

      1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

      Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

      1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

      Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

  28. thanks for this space.However, i am not a member of OAC, im only a disciple of Christ who have seen His resurrection through my conversion and spiritual growth.i think we need to pray before helping confused people in order to avoid being emotional and contradictory.the history of the apostolic church is so clear and straight forward and can be given through the net.again, those who ask the questions seem to read the scriptures partially, for they would have seen the truth about the church.Jesus had to be an apostle first before establishing an apostolic church(Heb3:1) which confirms that a true church of God is built on the apostles and the prophets(ephes2:19).everyone who reads the scriptures should remember that jesus told the twelve apostles that the power he recieved from God he now rests on the apostles for them to continue his mission(including the power to anoint apostles where there is a need).everyone is also witness that eversince the gospel reached the gentiles, the number of apostles increased (by Christ’s revelation) from 12 with the inclusion of Paul, Apollo and Silas.Now, what’s the business in seing Christ?Haven’t you read the scriptures that he who has seen the true disciples have seen Christ just as he who has seen Christ has seen God?For Apollo to convert from his conception of Christianity (Acts18:23), he had to see Christ in Aquila and Priscilla through what they preached to him.So, everyone is converted the same way (including C Klibbe)..if we could be converted through ownership and reading of the bible, then Jesus would have hired the apostles as publishers who would send bibles to people.in Daniel12, God confirms that the bible has some hidden messages that could only be interpreted by his rightful Son who further told the apostles that not them but Him would preach the Gospel and answer questions through their mouths (Mat10).i have more to say on this, but let me hold it here.concerning the second question, Klibbe never taught anyone to confirm people at age 16, but rather to preach the gospel to children who are at the age of understanding, even if they are born in the church since only their parents converted.concerning women, if you dont believe in what Christ said through Paul (“I warn you, not for my self but as per the Lord said).tear those bibles where these instructions about women are found and start welcoming your selves to hell.Jesus told the apostles to teach all he has told them, and that he who breaks one law has broken all of them and shall face the wrath of the master.concerning the spirituality of the bible:what good does the bible do to your flesh?there are two covenants in the bible (old and new).the old is for PHISICAL ISRAEL,and the promises are for them only.that is why it is written that the earth is for the dwelling of people and the heaven is for God.however, through thePHYSICAL covenant the new covenant was prophesied (a covenant that opens heavens for people to live with God forever).Paul warns that people who are interested in tales spoil the church, instead the scriptures should be directed to the spirit and not the flesh.that is why he uses the story of Abraham and Sarah to refer to the church and John the baptist in one of his letters.any comments should be directed to my email,thankyou.

  29. Interested Reader

    chris@ttac: Hi, thanks for the reply. The problem is not with Jesus and His apostles. The problem is with people who claim to be apostles today. They laud it over the people and act like they are in charge. What they say is right and you cant question them(Acts 17:10-11) and many times their “teachings” are contrary to the Bible.

    Jesus only ever built 1 church(Eph 2:20 & Acts 2 – the church was built about 2000 years ago by the apostles and prophets) so those elected apostles did what they were supposed to do. Also Jesus said the gates of Hades would not prevail against His church. Today Catholics, OACs, Charismatics and many others claim to have apostles, who is right? Are all of them right? If all of them are correct…then Christ is divided because they all have different teachings and are clearly many different churches? If they are not all real apostles, please explain to me which apostles we have to believe…the pope? AOC apostles? Charismatic apostles? anyone who claims to be an apostle?

    from Greek apostolos, from apostellein to send away, from apo- + stellein to send
    I did say in an earlier post that if a congregation sent someone, that person would be an apostle, like Barnabas in Acts 14. Barnabas was not chosen like the 12 and Paul were chosen by Jesus. The people who claim to be apostles today claim to be like Peter and Paul who were directly chosen by Jesus, they do not claim to be like Barnabas who was sent by the Antioch church.

    2 Timothy 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. If scripture is able to do all of this, why would you need some guy claiming to be an apostle(like Peter and Paul)? Paul is saying here that scripture is able to give us everything we need and we don’t need these “apostles” of today, Jesus is Lord of all not them. Because all scripture is God breathed it is perfect since every aspect of God is perfect.
    Jesus also said: John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. John 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. Where would we find the words of Jesus? In the Bible is it not?

    2 Cor 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. 5Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. 6 Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.

    12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

  30. chris@ttac

    thanks interested reader for your truthful observation.let me agree with you that who so ever teaches what is against the bible is not an apostle of Christ. Christ Himself warned that false teachers were coming who would claim to be sent by Him, and He said we are going to see them by their fruits(ungodly ways). Such were there even before Jesus went to Heaven. when He was going to Jerusalem He met men casting and praying using His name.but because they were not with Him, they were not for Him and because they never gathered with Him they scattered (lk11:23). There is a reason why a student have to attend all classes in order to gain all the skills and details he needs. those who never stayed with Christ do not know what He told the apostles in their absence.therefore, there is a tendency of people saying some things are unbiblical just because they have not read about them yet.today, some people still deny that when our Lord Jesus Christ died he went to the world of the dead and redeemed them with him into the Holy City (mat27:52).one thing, there is but one church of Jesus Christ and all else that calls his name and is labelled church is insulting the Word of God.Unity in faith is not calling one saviour and using the names church or Jesus. unity in faith is having one universal teaching, one heaven, one Jesus Christ, one Holy Spirit.some will not agree with me.but people have to remeber that JC said that some people exalt themselves while some are exalted by others (mat19:11).how?by telling themselves that ‘i know’,or ‘i was told’, yet being ignorant of who told them and where he came from.such people never listen to any body exept their own minds and rely on revelations from angels (fallen) forgetting Christ who is the head of their faith (col2:16). waiting on your response, thankyou.God be with you all.

    • Petrus

      Glo jy dat God altyd die regte besluite neem gaan lees Pred 3 in sy geheel alles wat is was alreeds en wat sal wees,was alreeds,en God soek weer op wat verbygegaan het bevraagteken ons God dan?ons kan nog baie gesels as dit dan so onduidelik is of hoe?

  31. a natural person will question GOD and HIS SERVANTS but spiritual people would neva question GOD, go read MATTH.25, where HE seperates the SHEEP from the goats, about GOD in MAN & stop judging THE OAC.

  32. chris@ttac

    oac member, we have to tackle it gentle until everyone who criticises something he does not know sees the light. im telling you, no one meets God’s servant and remains the same.let us try and answer their questions without getting emotional.at the end people will know that without being an apostle of jesus christ you cannot preach the gospel of christ.

  33. member OAC

    Chris@ttac may the Lord bless you.Im happy you have realised what I’ve been asking people to do,which is to read the scriptures in full.Like you said people asking questions seem to be reading the scriptures partially.What I like about the OAC,is that we only preach the Truth,we never force anyone to joing God’s Church,our Apostles have taken a stance,We also the members have taken a stance to only preach the Gospel,explain it,as there are mysteries that need to be revealed,I cannot emphasise more who Jesus said it was given to reveal those mysteries.You cannot pour water in a glass that is already full.In order to understand things you cant accept them,if your mind is full of negativity( your own thoughts).Come with an open mind,dont come with a hidden agenda,then we can speak to you.If you think we have not answered satisfactorily,you are free to make your choice.I have never spoken about what other people do in their Churches,yet other people,see it fit to make a mockery of what is done in God’s Church.When attending funerals of loved ones not attending OAC,i have seen many things been done in their Churchers which are not mentioned in the scriptures,even those who are saying negative things about God’s Church.Why are they not mentioning what they are doing which is not mention in scripture .I have also realised that the very people who accuse us of manipulation,also intepret things natural when they want,and mostly spiritual when they just want to defend a particular point.Im saying this because they have visited me many times not knowing that im a member of the OAC.When I invite them to come back they never come.I even begged the other ones to come back,and not to disappear,the guys promised,saying that they will come back after making research on a question i asked,precisely within a week.Its now two months,still no sign of them.They said they would call if they cant come,they didnt call either,i happend to see them walking in another area,im mentioning this because,from the comments or questions ive been answering I could sense a similarity in their style of questioning and comments.What i can say is you cannot say God has flesh like this flesh we are wearing which is covering Spirit.God is Spirit,when you read John.Thats were revealing of scriptures Spiritually come in.Our flesh is not the image of God.Thats just one example of a simple Spiritual intepretation,simple yet I must go and teach it to thousands of people with God’s will,as there are millions of people who dont know which image of God We are,even Christians who are reading the Bible dont know this like I have discovered everytime those i have mentioned came to visit me.Im grateful to God for giving me the opportunity to reveal Himself to Them,through the words that came out from my mouth.Im telling you when i said check what im telling you and read it out loud,it was as if they just came to a new realisation,there was silence and suprise in their faces.As more and more scriptures are revealed to them how many times are they going to be suprised.You wont know which scriptures are natural and which are Spiritual unless it was given to you to reveal the mystery like Jesus said.What is the purpose of the Apostles today,their purpose is Christ”s purpose,to make disciples of everyone,and to baptize them.Is that purpose finished?no ways,i still have to preach the gospel for as long as I live,together with my fellow brothers and sisters,even those who are young as they grow and become mature Spiritually.That is how the body of Christ is growing,Christ is the Church as its been said in the scriptures.Christ was not a fool to let his Body get amptutated.That why the Lord laid his foundation.Christ knows which foundation He has laid,like i have referred in Ephisians2.God can forgive for any sin,but not for insulting the Spirit of God.May we all learn from what is written here,and may we all get blessed today by this words.Remember God is not negative,only a human mind is, that why this division among Christians,because of intensionally ignoring scriptures.Christ only preached the Truth,most of the time,not ridiculing other people,mostly Pharisees where ridiculed as they where constantly testing Christ.Most of the questions that were posed to Christ,are the ones that we OAC members are asked.Christ has already come yet people dont realise it.You will know me the world wont know.Christ wont reveal himself to everyone thats why so many people dont see Him,even if He is walking among them on a daily basis.He even preaches the Gospel to them yet dont know its Christ.They even ridicule Him,among those Christians,its so painful to see people ridiculing the One they say they love and pray.Can I belittle my wife daily.and at the same time claim I love her.

  34. member OAC

    I would asked the confused member,to ask for clarity about any questions from the Church Leaders,even people who are happy to hear you talk about the Church you are member of make mistakes,so if a Deacon has not answered your question satisfactorily,in this Church you have so much freedom to tell your Deacon politely that you are not satisfied,The Deacon can go to his Priest to get more clarity on that question until you now feel you are satisfied.Like I said We dont question what other Churches do in their services in Church,even if what they are doing is not written in scriptures,we mainly reveal what is hidden in the scriptures and preach the Truth(the gospel).Christ said that the holy spirit will teach the Apostles even those things he never taught.Children who are confirmed are not forced,in fact i have seen many who chose not to be confirmed.Hav you heared what a Priest says when He baptises a baby,I bet you have not listened closely to the words.The Priest says it clearly that the responsibility of the baby is with the parents.I wonder if you have understood that part.I just clarifying those points,because you say you are a member.People who are happy that you dont understand want you to join them thats why i see somenone giving you the e-mail address.Hear are my words,let God his power in to you,if you are really an Apostle you know what that means,in did God wil reveal Himself be it tomorrow,next week,next year even after seven years

  35. chris@ttac

    member OAC, i really need some privacy with you.my email is shabangu.sifiso@yahoo.com. concerning the issue of salvation, The Lord has shown himself to those people who question just because they dont want to hear that they are in error.It reminds me of a story.there was this frog living under water and has never set foot outside the water.one day another frog visited this frog and told it that there was a bigger place than this dam. the frog said ‘no way!this is the biggest and nicest place ever.’ the other frog asked ‘why?’. ‘because i have lived here for a long time and i know what im talking about’. this confirms the saying that in a community of blindmen, the one eyed is a hero.such people exist today and call themselves christians. when you read acts 2 you find that the church endured in the teachings of the apostles (which are not according to men or cleverness but are according to the will of God).how can they be christians if they cant endure in the teaching that there is only one God, one Spirit, one Hope and one Church.i can assure you that the Lord is fighting a winning battle against the hearts of these people.

  36. Confused Apostolic Member

    Member OAC:

    Thank you for taking the time to try and help me see the light. I admire your passion and commitment as a loyal servant in the house of the Lord. I have taken in everything you have posted but I wish to make a few pointers.

    In retrospect, I’ve realized that I shouldn’t have posted on this forum to begin with without speaking to my Priest first.

    Unfortunately, the old man can sometimes get the better of all us and I pray each and every day and night that the old man is crucified so that the Christ gift can become a deed in my life and overcome the fleshly desires and lusts.

    Member OAC, as a brother, you and I both know that this is not how we break bread or testify. The fact that this discussion is not a recognized church activity or that it has not been opened up in prayer concerns me and makes us vulnerable to evil spirits. This is why I have not responded any more.

    I understand that you are trying to bring the light fourth unto others (including myself) who are in darkness. It’s hard to resist. But, by trying to preach the word this way, people cannot truly “hear” or understand the word of God. Unfortunately, not everyone will be on the same wavelength and understand the context of what each of us trying to illustrate which can distort peoples perspectives on the OAC. Regrettably, I have already made this mistake in some of my earlier posts and I plan not to make the same mistake again.

    There is a reason why we have a mouth, two eyes and two ears. The seed can only be sown in our heart of understanding once we use our natural bodies to its fullest potential and not half heartily. That’s why the lord uses our natural bodies as instruments to go fourth and do the righteous deeds but in the correct way.

    Lastly, just to try and make my point clear, I’m sure the Apostle wouldn’t support this way of testifying or breaking bread either. So respectfully, Member OAC, I’m not trying to patronize you but I think there is much better way to bring fourth the light as opposed to the way we have all been attempting to do so thus far.

    Respectfully

  37. chris@ttac

    confused apostolic member, thankyou for being true to your calling.i agree with you on posting or breaking bread on the net.i will just brief you how i came in here.i heard that there are seven apostolic churches that claim their existance from the gospel of Christ preached by the beloved apostle george C Klibbe in south africa.i had to read about them until i found this page.so i joined everyone in here.my question now is, why are there so many schisms from the church?how many heavens do we have?why are you better than the next person?who is the true apostle between apollo and paul?all i want is the objective history of the oac, with details on how the church lost lombard and ndlovu.

  38. Interested Reader

    Numbers 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

    Guys, with all due respect. You are placing to much faith in men(Psalm 118:8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man). I am not saying you should not trust people and listen to them but Jesus died to make everyone free, free for us to come to Him. No one now stands in our way to go to the Father….John 14:6

    I would like to ask a question and you don’t have to answer me but think about it please.

    I have heard it said by OA members that what the OA apostle says is the word of God. If this is true then he can never be wrong if he predicts anything. If he says something is going to happen it must happen if it doesn’t happen it is not of God. This also counts for anyone claiming that whatever they say is the word of God.

    Has any of these men who claim that what they say is the Word of God ever said anything that didn’t come true, if so then you must ask yourself why.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

  39. chris@ttac

    interested reader, im sure this is but your assumption about the apostolic church. the problem is that you tend to generalize statements that are not general. God is not man, but he manifests himself in man.we do not have to trust all what people say because each one of us has the Holy Spirit that reminds us when we are in error.God does leave a man who persistently does what his mind tells him.by saying that God is the Word we do not necesarily mean all that is spoken comes from God.never make that mistake, for fallen angels who know about heaven may take advantage of you.

  40. former old apostolic member

    chris@ttac:

    Interested reader is not making general statements. If you are a faithful member of the OAC then you will know that they believe that every word that is spoken from an apostle or officer is the word of God and they believe that is is a fact. So if you say that not every word that comes from them is the word of God then how do you choose what is and what is not. This is the point that myself and I think interested reader is trying to make. The Bible contains the Word of God without any errors. There is no need to doubt whether it is true or not, unlike the old apostolics who believe that every word they have is the true word of God. chris@ttac I think you should study this doctrine so you can have a better understanding what it is all about. I can say this because I was a faithfull member there and I have witnessed officers who believes that what they give you is from God, but afterwards it fails them. In my experience even an apostle prophesied in error. My friend, God does not make mistakes.They believe that it is a fact that they are the only church that has the truth and that the whole world will join this church. Look at what Matt 7:13-14 says: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” The scriptures says that not everyone will enter the kingdom, but the old apostolics believe that the whole world will become old apostolics(hence enter the kingdom). That means that they contradict the scriptures.

    • Petrus

      God don,t speak out of the blue sky He has always use man to speak to man the apostle today is also just a vesel that God uses ex read your bible or go to somebody that is a strong member of the churh OAC and you will get your answers as the world or some of the world did not believe that Jesus was the son of God they won.t believe him today if he should come again .Go read Rev 22 v 19-21 and think again.

  41. Confused Apostolic Member

    Interested Reader:

    There are seven powers in the OAC. The power is male. If we don’t crucify our fleshly lusts and desires then our souls (which are female) cannot be directed by the power which will not enable us cannot be sons of god:

    Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Regardless of our status in the church, each and every one of us has been ordained a power. It is through this power the spirit of God is can be revealed through us as a word and a deed regardless of whether we are a Brother, Sister, Under Deacon, Priest etc. Therefore the “word of God” is not exclusive to the Apostle. The “word of God” can come from any member in the church as we all inherit the gift of Christ once we become life giving spirits. However, the powers individually will dictate a member’s level of accountability, responsibility and role within the church. Therefore, to be ordained an Apostle obviously carries the biggest responsibility of all the seven powers BUT in SPIRIT regardless of where we stand in the church, we are all SONS of God which means we are all equal.

    The only way we can reveal the power is through crucifying the “old man, dragon, Satan, our fleshly desires etc”:

    Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    This is only accomplished through laying down your life i.e. your fleshly desires for another fellow member of the church or going out into the field of testimony and helping worldly people who are in darkness see the light through the righteous deeds.

    I completely agree with you. We should not put our faith in men. The spirit of God cannot work through the mind of the old man. Regardless of whether we are part of the OAC or not every body has a soul i.e. the first Adam. Souls are either steered by the lusts of man or the spirit of God. If our soul is driven by one of the seven powers ordained unto us then our souls then become life giving sprits. In other words, while we are here on earth it is our natural bodies that are used as the vehicle to go fourth and do the deed. If we put our faith in man then we cannot be directed by the spirit of God.

    1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    In order to distinguish the difference between whether we are putting our faith in man or the spirit of God we have to be able to recognize the qualifications which constitute the fruits of the spirit. Galations illustrates this very clearly:

    Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    I’m not exactly sure what you are implying as far as the Apostle being able to predict things. Predict what exactly? The Apostle power always speaks the truth just like any other power – the spiritual truth. There is always absolute certainty as to what’s to come when walking in the spirit just as there is when walking in the flesh:

    Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    As with everything though, there always needs to be a balance both spiritually and naturally. If you put your faith in the Lord first, not only will we be blessed naturally, but more importantly, we will blessed spiritually. The greatest blessing of all is to be blessed with the spiritual understanding. We must go through this process of transformation (rebirth) every day changing from a naturally thinking person to a spiritually minded person. In order for this to happen, we must die daily:

    1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

    Respectfully

  42. Interested Reader

    Hi

    When you guys really want to study the Bible let me and former old apostolic member know. He has posted his email address so you guys can get in touch with him.

    For now I will say goodbye.

    • Steadfast OAC Member

      Intersted Reader:

      Surley you are not imlying that your understanding of the bible is superior to everyone elses on this forum?

      If thats the case then you are know better off than what you supposedly make the Apostles of the OAC out to be.

      We respect other peoples beliefs and other churches beliefs (including you). The last time I checked the title of this blog it said The History Behind The Old Apostolic Church. We always welcome questions and are alwys willing to answer them but are answers will always be in a spiritual context.

      Unless somebody can provide me with a natural meaning as opposed to a spiritual meaning for the following text versus then I will always continue to see the scriptures spiritually.

      Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

      Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
      Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
      Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
      Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
      Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
      Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

      1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
      1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
      1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
      1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
      1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
      1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
      1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

      Regards,

      Steadfast OAC Member

  43. Steadfast OAC Member

    I think it is obvious to say that what is written in the bible is without any errors. However, unless we can understand what is written, the bible is useless to us all. If you attend a church service or are testifying somebody you wouldn’t just regurgitate passages out of the bible because what is written is without error. What is written in the bible must apply to our lives today and the only way for this to happen is by understanding what is written in the scriptures.

    I think some of the alleged accusations people have made thus far concerning the OAC are very one sided. Regarding Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

    Although it is not uplifting, this text verse specifically highlights that within the OAC it is possible for members to give false testimony. It does not matter if it is the Apostle, Priest, Brother etc but it is possible. Why is this? Unfortunately, even when we are doing the godly works we are still human which makes us susceptible to the old man (our egos and/or our fleshly lusts and desires, devil etc) which can contaminate the word. Therefore, we have to pay attention to the works of the devil and how cunning he can be.

    Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    However, in the book of Revelations the scriptures warns us that even when we are doing Gods will, Satan is right there trying to persuade and lure us into doing his will. Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    In the OAC we believe that there are seven powers or seven spirits which enables the spirit of god to dwell in us. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    The seven spirits that are ordained unto us consist of brother, sister, under deacon, priest, elder, fourfold office and apostle. Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

    However, we must remember that the devil also has seven heads. Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Therefore, the seven spirits of God is also susceptible to the seven heads of the devil and they can steer us I we are not careful. Revelations 12:3 also illustrates that in contrast to the victories we experience when we worship god in spirit and truth, Satan can also have victories as well. Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. The seven crowns are what we must watch out for because these crowns represent Satan’s victories. Therefore, as an example, this is where false testimony, prophets and misunderstanding are derived from.

    Despite this, because Christ dwells within us we have the power to overcome the devil. Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Mar 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. But for this to happen we must die off the old man daily because he is always there. Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

    As a result, the OAC believes that the crucifixion is a spiritual crucifixion. There are many passages in the scriptures which emphasizes that we must go through the same process which I have already highlighted. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    In our lives today, the crucifixion is a continuous process. The OAC believes that the crucifixion doesn’t only happen once in our lives, it happens many times over and over again. This is why we must die daily. Not in a physical sense but in spiritual sense. In the OAC we acknowledge that we are human and we aware of the fact that we have our own faults and weaknesses which go against gods will. It is the faults and weaknesses we are overcoming on a daily basis so that we may prosper in spirit and in truth.

    Regarding Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. We must understand that to cometh unto the father, Christ must dwell within us in spirit otherwise it would only be exclusive Jesus. If Jesus Christ dwells within us then we can make better sense of Joh14:6. In 1 Jonh 4 it illustrates this very clearly , 1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Further more, 1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

    Therefore 1Jn 4:6 it illustrates if God is in us, we have the gift to be able to discern truth and error. In 1 Co 12:1 it also mentions the spiritual gifts. In particular, one of those gifts is highlighted in 1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:. It is the discerning of spirits which enables us to distinguish what is truth and what is error. Why would the scriptures highlight that there is potential for error? Because we are human and that we are still susceptible to the devils influence.

    So contrary to what people have mentioned thus far about members in the OAC accepting what ever the Apostle says is the word of God or any member for that reason is untrue. Any member who dies not understand, agree or believe what has been said has the right to question it.

    I can only speak for myself, but I have never experienced an Apostle in OAC lauding their words over people and acting like they are in charge or what they say is right and you cant question them. People need to get their facts right first before they go out and make accusations like this. I don’t know this for a fact but it may happen in other churches but certainly not in ours not from my experience anyway.

    Intersted Reader, regarding the text verses you mentioned about the Apostles teachings begin contrary to the bible: Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. I’m not exactly sure what bible you are quoting from but you quote “and many times their teachings are contrary to the Bible.” Is this from your bible or is this your interpretation. It is saying that that Paul and Silus were sent to preach the gospel to the people of Berea. However, although the people of Berea received the word, they wanted clarity by searching the scriptures to see if Paul and Silus were preaching the truth. Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Former OAC, if you felt that an Apostle gave false testimony is this necessarily a bad thing? Sure, it’s not uplifting or motivating but if what your saying is true then I think it is positive as the prophetic gift within you has awakened and allowed you to discern that as the spirit of error. If we were all perfect then we would never have to distinguish between right and wrong. The kingdom of heaven is not something that is just handed to us, we must strive for it. It’s an everyday process we must go through changing from a natural thinking person to a spiritual thinking person. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Unfortunately, we are not perfect yet we strive to be perfect. If God made us all perfect then there would be nothing to learn from in our lives today my brother. Where there is good there will always be bad. Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

    Regards,

    Steadfast OAC

  44. former OAC member

    Steadfast OAC Member:

    With all due respect, I am not suprised by your response. My responses were similar to yours whenever I was questioned about the OAC. It was only later that i discovered that my responses was inspired by 20 years of doctrine installed in me by men. Even scriptures could be qouted together with these responses, like what you are doing in the above comments. This seems so right to you and seemed right to me when i was still a member of the OAC, but now i know that this was because of a lack of knowledge of The Bible. Hosea 4: 6 My people perish from a lack of knowledge.

    Regarding the proof of a physical existence, yes there is proof. It is all around us and The Bible confirms it very accurately. Of course I would like to study with you to show you that this proof is in The Bible, History and Science. Once you are done with this study, I will assure you that you will see that the physical creation makes sense. I can even hear that your response on the creation is not coming from you, but it was installed in you by doctrine, just as it was done to me, because it is exactly the same as mine was.

    So if you consider the Bible completely spiritual, then how would you interpret for example the parables of Jesus? Will you interpret the parables to spiritual? But wait….did’nt Jesus explain or translate this already in a spiritual sense? I wonder what the outcome will be of spiritual to spiritual translation?

    So if Jesus’s crucifixion was spiritually, how did He die then? or should I rather ask: was Jesus’s life spiritual? Was His birth then also spiritual and not physical, cause one can then also say that His physical birth does not make sense to us?

    Wait now you will say: “we do believe that Jesus came in the flesh” because you do not want to be associated with the antichrist in 2 John1:7 “Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist” . But if you believe that Jesus came in the flesh, but His death/crucifixion was spiritual and NOT physical, then none of this makes sense.

    When it comes to certain things it is okay for OAC to translate it physically or as you would say naturaly. I would realy like to know why this is so? Look at the simple example of confused OAC member regarding the issue of the covering of the head. Why don’t you take this also spiritually but rather physical. I know you can apply it spiritualy in your life, but why do you then also take this physical, but Jesus’s death not physical?

    Also, I did not say that me knowing about the proof of the existence has more authority over the scriptures. Everything I say and know about God’s Word is biblical. In fact when I talk about God’s Word, I talk about scriptures.

    To me, if someone prophesies in error or gives false testimony i would prefer not to listen to him at all and rather listen to God’s Word(The Scriptures) as there are no errors in the Scriptures.

    Deuteronomy 18:21-22, “And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”

    The OAC apostles and officers do claim that the word they speak is God. But as you can see in the above scripture, God’s Word does not contain errors and if anyone prophesies falsely he is not from God. It’s as easy as that. To me, it is much safer to listen to God’s Word instead of a men who claims to be of God.

    My invitation is still standing. Let’s settle this for once and for all in a personal bible study. All are welcome.

    May God bless you.

    with love,
    former OAC member.

    • ABCDEF

      Honestly, I have never seen somebody seeing God from the reading of the scripture. So, “former OAC member”, let cut long story short by visiting each other to discuss your questions/concerns.

      I am OAC member and trully find your questions/concerns can be easily answered. At least, your will get the chance to enlighten me about your view.

      Afterall, I am will not be doing something new with your mind. It has been done before, it can be done again !!!! Everthing that you know you know it because of somebody. And chances are, that person did not write you something to read, but spoken to you.

      I might be wrong, but prove me wrong ! ! I can’t engage in a testimony via the internet, it is pointless.

  45. interested reader

    @Steadfast OAC Member

    “Unless somebody can provide me with a natural meaning as opposed to a spiritual meaning for the following text versus then I will always continue to see the scriptures spiritually.

    John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

    Hi, can you please explain how do you worship God in spirit and in truth?

    “Former OAC, if you felt that an Apostle gave false testimony is this necessarily a bad thing? Sure, it’s not uplifting or motivating but if what your saying is true then I think it is positive as the prophetic gift within you has awakened and allowed you to discern that as the spirit of error. If we were all perfect then we would never have to distinguish between right and wrong.”

    Not false testimony, false prophesy:

    2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    Numbers 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

    God can not lie nor can He be wrong. If a person claims to be a prophet or that they are able to prophesy, he must be 100% accurate because what he says does not come from him but God.

    • Steadfast OAC Member

      Former OAC Member:

      I and the other OAC members have nothing to hide on this forum so I am quite happy to continue discussing the scriptures as we have been thus far. Therefore, I, as well as other followers of this thread, would be interested to hear about the proof that you have.

      If you are not surprised with the response I have given you then why cant you refute the text verses I have provided? I have provided you with multiple text verses yet you only wish to provide me with your opinions yet very few text verses to justify your explanations.

      When you say lets settle this once and for all, are you implying like Interested Reader has also stipulated, that your understanding is superior to everyone else’s on this thread? Is that attitude in accordance with the fruits of the spirit?

      With all due respect, Former OAC Member, science and the scriptures are like comparing apples with oranges. If you are using science and history to justify the scriptures then you are putting you faith in man. Science is not inspired by the spirit of God nor is the works of science guided via the spirit of god. As you have repeatedly stated so far, “what is written in the bible is without error”.

      Why are you searching outside the scriptures to justify your answers when the answers are already contained within the scriptures?

      I am not mocking science at all. Science certainly has its place but so does the scriptures.

      You stated: “To me, it is much safer to listen to God’s Word instead of a men who claims to be of God.”

      That is logical point you have put fourth and I have nothing against what you have stated. However, I am confused when you further stated: “Of course I would like to study with you to show you that this proof is in The Bible, History and Science”

      How is this any different to what you accuse the OAC of doing? (Putting our faith in man) when you are doing the exact same thing with using science and history (man) to explain the creation.

      But then you also contradict yourself and later state: “Also, I did not say that me knowing about the proof of the existence has more authority over the scriptures. Everything I say and know about God’s Word is biblical. In fact when I talk about God’s Word, I talk about scriptures.” So if everything you know about Gods word is biblical and when you talk about Gods word you talk about the scriptures, why do you need science and history justify your understanding of the scriptures?

      Again, and I’ll word it differently this time, does science and history then carry more weight than the bible?

      Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
      Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.

      Is John speaking of a different light to the light we read of in Genesis?

      Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

      In verse 2, how can the spirit of god move across the face of the waters if the earth was without form and void?

      Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
      Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
      Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

      In verses 1-3, God has said that there was light and that there was day and night but if you read in verse 16, he only creates the sun and the moon on the third day. In a natural/physical sense, how could there have been light and day on the first day if the sun wasn’t created until the third day?

      Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
      Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
      Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
      Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

      Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

      Why is he specifically only referring to the dry land as earth? If he was referring to planet earth aren’t the seas part of planet earth?

      Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

      In verse 1 God created the heaven and the earth. Is he referring to the planet earth or the dry land which he referred to as the earth in verse 10?

      Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

      Mar 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

      Is the earth that is being referred to in the above text verses the same earth that is referred to as in Genesis?

      How do we interpret parables? We already recognise that Jesus is speaking in a spiritual language. However you can’t just acknowledge that Jesus is speaking spiritually without understanding what they mean spiritually and how they can be applied spiritually.

      We do believe Jesus of Nazerath was a natural person and had a natural life however we believe that his works and miracles were in a spiritual manner. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

      So must we go physically nail ourselves to a cross to be with Christ?

      1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

      1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:. We cannot worship god in truth or spirit without our natural bodies. 1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. If we don’t have a natural body then we don’t have a mind of understanding. What we understand spiritually also has to be applied naturally. How we behave naturally is influenced by what we understand spiritually. 1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Our natural bodies are vehicles in order for the soul to be driven by the spirit of god. 1Co 4:1 So let a man think of us as ministers of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

      You ask: “I know you can apply it spiritualy in your life, but why do you then also take this physical”

      What we understand in a spiritual sense we must also represent in a natural sense. For example, when men come to church in suits in a symbolic manner this represents the armour of god. When we go about our natural work we can also apply the spiritual lessons we learn to the way we conduct our everyday lives so we can go out there and be examples unto others.

      That is your opinion if choose not to listen to someone who prophecies in error or gives false testimony in error. If you are not prepared to at least question the officer or your vessel of blessing concerning the matter/s you have experienced then that is your loss.

      The OAC believes that members are instruments of God in which the spirit of god is revealed through us as the body of chirst. Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

      Former OAC Member, even though I don’t agree with everything you have said, I do respect your opinions. Furthermore, even though you say you are not a member of the OAC anymore, I still love you as a Brother. Which ever way you decide to go in terms of your spiritual growth and soul salvation is your decision and I respect that. I hope that you are presently experiencing the joy, peace and righteousness. I firmly believe though once an apostolic always an apostolic.

      Be Blessed.

    • Steadfast OAC Member

      Interested Reader:

      Before I continue to answer your questions, I will put the ball back in your court and ask you to refer back to my query.

      Can you please provide us all with a rational and clear understanding of the following text verse in a physical/natural sense please?

      Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

      Lastly, regarding: Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

      If you actually take the time and effort to read the examples, explanations and text verses I have provided thus far you will find the answer.

      Regarding text verses you highlighted below:

      2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
      2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

      Please refer to what the scripture says s follows:

      1Co 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
      1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

      Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

      Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

      1Jn 4:4 You are of God, little children, and you have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

      1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

  46. Steadfast OAC Member

    Dear All,

    For those of you following this thread, I wish to highlight that the negativity that has been written so far regarding the OAC has been nothing but misconceived preconceptions.

    To make this crystal clear, we do not alter the scriptures or the word of god that has been written in the bible. We do not claim that what we speak of overrides what is written already. We do however (and this is important) bring fourth the spiritual UNDERSTANDING (the light) of what has been written in the scriptures through the word. Therefore if you understand (see the light) you know the truth. This can only happen if we are being led by the spirit of god which dwells within us which can only be present if we crucify our natural/wordly ways of thinking. Unless we understanding the scriptures (see the light) then the bible is dead to us (darkness). So just to point out again, and to set the record straight, we preach the spiritual understanding of the scriptures we do not alter the word that has already been written.

    Former OAC Member, you should know better than to twist the truth. The understanding and teaching which we preach is what we are referring too when we speak the word. The spoken words I refer to are the ones which correlate to the teaching and understanding of the scriptures not the re-wording of the scriptures as you claim we do. The teachings and understandings can only be guided and revealed through the Holy Spirit which is within us. I don’t know if it is deliberate or due to misunderstanding on your part but you are leading people to the conclusion that the OAC has more authority over the scriptures and has the right to change the scriptures at will so that scriptures conform to our understanding. This is not true. You have already been provided with a multitude of text verses that substantiate the spiritual understanding we bring fourth from the scriptures.

    Tell me, has there been any evidence that I have re-worded or manipulated the text verses that I have previously posted?

    I also find it interesting how you and interested reader continue to provide the same text verses in all your posts about false prophets and false testimony when I have clearly shown valid text verses which justify why and how this can happen and most importantly how to discern these errors.

    Instead of asking these questions online behind closed doors and if you are so stead fast and absolutely certain in the truth you presently know then why don’t you settle it once and for all in person face to face with your vessel of blessing and other members of the OAC? They would be quite happy to discuss your concerns and answer your questions based on the scriptures – not there opinion.

    As I have said, we have nothing to hide in this faith. Although there can be benefits from learning about the scriptures over the internet, in the context of this discussion it should be discussed in person face to face.

    I’m sorry I haven’t been able to clarify my post with text verses as I don’t have my bible with me although I have already listed a multitude of tests which justifies what I have written.

    • Interested Reader

      1 Peter 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

      Can you guys also explain this to me please?

      The ark that Noah built was a spiritual ark and God destroyed the world spiritually? So eight spirits were saved and the rest of the people on the earth had no spirits after the flood but they had bodies.

      I don’t think I am making sense now because James 2:26 says: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

      Can you guys please explain the spiritual meaning of the flood to me.

      Thanks.

  47. former OAC member

    Steadfast OAC Member:

    I am not in any way or in any of my statements inclining that science have authority over the Bible nor the knowledge that I have regarding the proof of physical creation have authority over the Bible. That is your opinion. I will never say that science and history carries more weight than the Bible. Let me make this straight.

    The Bible is not a science book, yet it is scientifically accurate. I was referring to science and history, because you said that certain things in the Bible does not make sense physically. What does that mean? To you it does not make sense that the creation in Genisis can be physical ,because according to you, science does not make it possible. Am I right? Many people think that The Bible and science are enemies and that is totaly wrong. In fact, science compliments the Bible and proves the accuracy of The Bible. It is scientists and NOT science that contradicts the Bible. Scientists theories and their opinions contradicts the Bible. My response was directly aimed on this point. There is a great deal of scientific evidence that supports the Bible and it is too much to discuss on this forum and that is why I suggested that we do this off line, else we will clogg this blog. Let me make a couple of simple examples:

    Example 1:
    Job 26:7 :”He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.”
    Science: “Is the earth today hanging on anything?”
    How will you interpret this spiritually and does it make sense scientifically?

    Example 2:
    Isaiah 40:22 :”It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth”
    Science: “It is a fact that the earth is round.”
    It took many centuries for men to discover this after numerous arguments and effort. Why did’nt they just took God’s Word? Again , is this spiritual or physical?

    Example 3:
    Joshua 6:20 :”When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city.”
    History: “There are evidence today of the walls of Jericho that fell and the way they fell.”

    There are numerous other topics and examples that does not scientificaly makes sense to you such as Noah’s flood, the genesis creation and many many more, but there is proof that this physically happened. This is what i was referring to when I talked about the Bible, science & history and NOT saying that science and history carries more weight.

    I am really puzzled when it comes to the fact that you believe that Jesus came in the flesh, but did not die in the flesh. His death must have been physical otherwise it would contradict the prophecy about the death of Christ and how would people then know that He was the Christ? Now that does not make sense. So, was the prophecies then also spiritual? So how would one than prophecy about something that will take spiritually place. Surely you prophecy “in the spirit” but about physical events, such as the physical death of a member in your congregation. So, what makes it so impossible for Jesus’s crucifixion to be physical? So if the works, manners and miracles of Jesus were spiritual, what would the meaning of it be? So let’s take the blind man whos sight Jesus restored. Are you saying that spiritually this man could not see, meaning he does not understand? What does he not understand? The Gospel? So have Jesus been doing when He preached to the others. Why don’t the scriptures say that they were also blind and Jesus restored their sight. Another example, you will say that if someone is spiritually dead it means that he does not have the truth or he is a sinner. So why don’t the Bible describe everyone(sinners) as dead as Lazarus, cause according to you everyone of those people would be spiritually dead.

    “For example, when men come to church in suits in a symbolic manner this represents the armour of god. When we go about our natural work we can also apply the spiritual lessons we learn to the way we conduct our everyday lives so we can go out there and be examples unto others. ” Symbolic manner? represents the armor??? why don’t you then carry a sword and a helmet also? I’m sorry, but I don’t find this statement scriptural.

    You will contradict the scriptures if you take everything spiritually. One example is, let’s take the creation of man. You know how you will apply it spiritually. Let’s take the woman. Spiritually you’ll say that this is the man’s soul, but if you take that statement and read the rest of the scriptures you will see that it does not make sense. Later on you will find men with more than one wife. Does this say that man have more than one soul?

    Let’s take Noah’s flood for instance. I will agreee that we can apply this flood spiritually in our lives, but I disagree when you say that the flood is spiritual and NOT physical.

    You were reminding me of the fact that I am not using enough scriptures. Well, I have been using scriptures all the time, but you keep on interpreting it spritually when it suits you and using it out of context. You need to realize that you can’t interpret everything as spiritual in Scriptures. Unless you are doing this with an open mind and except that there is a possibility that you might be wrong, this will not work. It will turn out into an argument. You are not letting go of the traditions and doctrine installed in you.

    “I firmly believe though once an apostolic always an apostolic.” This is what not what you firmly believe. This is the tradition and the doctrine of the OAC. It is not scriptural. It is another example of how everyone is programmed to respond to a former member. I also used that statement 🙂 Apostle means messenger of God and I am a messenger of God, because I am carrying the message of Good News over to the rest of the world. I am not an old apostolic member anymore. I am simply a son of God that belongs to God’s Curch.

    “That is your opinion if choose not to listen to someone who prophecies in error or gives false testimony in error. If you are not prepared to at least question the officer or your vessel of blessing concerning the matter/s you have experienced then that is your loss. ” I have been challenging these officers and none of my questions were answered. If you read this thread from the beginning to the end, you will see in some of these questions in my responses and scriptual references which none of you were able to answer until this day. Not only on this thread, but some of your church’s officers who still visits me on a regular basis are unable to answer these questions. I will rather turn to God himself than to trust in men, because this is what these officers are. They are men and NOT God. Today we don’t need mediators like in the days of Moses and the other prophets. Christ took care of that on the cross for us. Why even bother to report, trust and listen to men(or a mediator between you and God) when you can have a personal relationship with God?

    “Interested Reader has also stipulated, that your understanding is superior to everyone else’s on this thread? Is that attitude in accordance with the fruits of the spirit?” No where have I found on this blog that myself or interested reader made this statement. On the contrary this is what the OAC practice. That their doctrine is superior. That the OAC is the only way to salvation. That they are the only true church. What fruit does this attitude stipulate?

  48. former OAC member

    Steadfast Member:
    You keep making false statements about me and interested reader. No one ever said that you alter scriptures. I said you read it out of context and interpret it the wrong way.

    There are thousands of scriptures that is written in a spiritual meaning, for instance the examples you used in the above post. I agree and i am sure that there are more than 90% of saints out there that believes that John 3:5, John 4:24 and many other scriptures are meant spiritually.

    The difference is that not all people believe that the Bible is completely spiritual. Some scriptures are spiritual and some is as it written.

    “Former OAC Member, you should know better than to twist the truth”. I am not twisting any truth my friend. God is the judge of he who is telling a lie here and I tell you the truth, I am a God-fearing man. I live for the truth.

    You are not teaching what Jesus commanded. Many of the things you preach are scriptural. I am not saying you twist or alter the scriptures. What I am saying is that not everything you preach and teach is scriptural. I will not make any examples of what it is you do and not do according to scriptures, because to you it seems that I am trying to expose the OAC and wronfully or falsely accuse the OAC. I am suprised you did’nt pull the “don’t judge” card on me. Look at what the verse below says:

    2 Tim 3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, REBUKING, CORRECTING and training in righteousness,”

    Why do you make The Gospel so complicated? It is simple as it is written in the following summary:
    We were sinners, because of this we don’t have a relationship with God. God sent His Son, to die for our sins. Whoever hears this Good News, believe it, confess , repent, is baptized and live faithfully keeping His commands will be saved. As easy as that. This is the Gospel in a summary. It is simple for any one to understand who reads the scriptures.

    I have been trying to explain to you that we should take this off line and do the personal bible study, but you tried to stop me and accused me of having more authority over the scriptures. My friend if we do a Bible study, we look at what the Bible says and not you and my opinions. Let’s do this. I am in the Goodwood area in the Western Cape. Where are you?

  49. Steadfast OAC Member

    Former OAC Member,
    You are digressing. Lets stick to the topic of the creation that you claim to have proof on. Again I will ask a second time, since you have the proof, why haven’t you bothered to answer the questions I have highlighted below concerning Genesis?

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.

    Is John speaking of a different light to the light we read of in Genesis?

    Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    In verse 2, how can the spirit of god move across the face of the waters if the earth was without form and void?

    Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    In verses 1-3, God has said that there was light and that there was day and night but if you read in verse 16, he only creates the sun and the moon on the third day. In a natural/physical sense, how could there have been light and day on the first day if the sun wasn’t created until the third day?

    Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
    Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

    Why is he specifically only referring to the dry land as earth? If he was referring to planet earth aren’t the seas part of planet earth?

    Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    In verse 1 God created the heaven and the earth. Is he referring to the planet earth or the dry land which he referred to as the earth in verse 10?

    Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

    Mar 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

    Is the earth that is being referred to in the above text verses the same earth that is referred to as in Genesis?

  50. Interested Reader

    @Steadfast OAC Member:

    You have not answered my question, please explain(make me see the light)…how do you worship God in spirit and in truth?

    “Can you please provide us all with a rational and clear understanding of the following text verse in a physical/natural sense please?

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

    Matthew 16:16Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Acts 2:36“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
    37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
    38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

    Please Note:
    Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ….
    verse 18…and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. – So Jesus will build His church(synonym for kingdom)

    Acts 2:36…God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” – Notice the parallel to Matthew 16:16 – the rock which is the statement Peter made that Jesus is the Christ, this is the day the church started and how did they enter the kingdom.

    38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized – (WATER) … in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit – (and SPIRIT – the Holy Spirit Himself)

    Acts2:47…And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

    {1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.}

  51. chris@ttacc

    i now agree that the true gospel cannot be preached through the net. all i see is people throwing verses at each other as if to induce fear and to gain pride that “i can read the bible”. i think this thread was made in order to share understanding not confusion. i still ask this question, how can a man be baptised while he rests on a camel back? if people dont humble themselves, they cannot listen to others.there’s been a question directed to oac concerning their origin. now interested reader, former oac and the rest, please answer this question.who formed your church?(please dont say christ because he formed his church in Matthew16:13 not later than that).if you are part of jesus’ church, do you still visit the brothers in jerusalem as paul and other apostles did?do you still belong to the one catholic and apostolic church formed by jesus christ?if not, where do you get your authority of preaching the gospel?hell is looming on all imposters who create their own ways of which our lord does not approve.

  52. former OAC member

    February 22, 2010 at 5:39 am

    “I just have one question. Where did Apostle Klibbe get his authority from? If your answer can not be supported by scriptures, please explain who/what your source is and why it can be trusted?”

    The above question was all I asked more than 2 months ago. I still dont have a valid answer. This is everything to do with the history of the OAC. You said all my questions can be answered. Please answer the above question and if the answer is valid I will stop commenting and return to the OAC.

    • Steadfast OAC Church Member

      Former OAC Member,

      Is it possible C Klibbe got his authority this way?

      Throughout the time with OAC do you remember the 5 gifts (not the prophetic gifts) we have within us as referred to in Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers. So spiritually, for example at any given time, we bring fourth the gift of the apostle, evangelist, teacher etc. Sometimes we may even exhibit a combination of these gifts as we bring fourth the understanding to someone.

      It’s the same as what you are referring to when you say that you are a messenger of God bringing with you Good News. The Apostle gift is within you in spirit but you may also at any given time be a teacher, pasta etc simultaneously too.

      If Christ dwells within us in spirit Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Then spiritually, it does make sense to me that if we have the gift of Christ within us, in the sprit, then we possess all of the 5 gifts.

      I was breaking bread with my priest the other week and I specifically remember him talking about what I’m trying to bring fourth now. The Apostle of the OAC was clarified to me as somebody who is the ambassador of the church or in other words it is defined as an actual role or responsibility within the church as opposed to an actual Apostle who was appointed physically by Jesus. That would also apply to any other position in the church right down to the brother and sister role. So the point I am trying to get at is that we all have the gift of the Apostle within us but in spirit. Officers define the structure and the different roles and responsibilities within the church but in spirit we are all Gods children which mean that we are equal.

      I’m not saying it did happen like this but I’ll try and give you a hypothetical example. If C Klibbe back then did come to the understanding we know of today in the OAC and he had followers then wouldn’t he then be a messenger (Apostle gift) in the spirit unto those followers? Due to him preaching the gospel and the understanding, then Christ must have dwelled within him in the spirit meaning that he must have had the Holy Spirit within him. During that time he would have also been bringing fourth the other gifts as well such as the gift of the teacher, pasta and evangelist etc in order for people to learn and understand the gospel. As a result, it makes sense that he was then given the responsibility to be head (ambassador) of the church back then due to his depth of understanding. Naturally, as the OAC congregation got larger communities formed and therefore other responsibilities and roles (priests, under deacons) were necessary in order to help grow the body of Christ.

      We can’t have actual Apostles today though like Paul and Peter who were physically anointed by Jesus but we can be messengers of God in spirit. So therefore, we all have the Apostle gift within us as well as the other gifts I have referred too.

      What say you?

  53. Steadfast OAC Church Member

    I’m going to be perfectly honest with you, Brother – I don’t know and I can’t answer that question for you and there may even be a possibility that nobody can answer it. It is a perfectly valid question though.

    However, just because you haven’t received your answer on this thread yet does not mean that there isn’t one. The Lord works in mysterious ways and perhaps he may reveal the answer to you one day.

    My partner who was born in the church wants nothing to do with it anymore at this stage in her life and I can understand her reasons for doing so. My opinion has always been that it’s not the faith that is wrong it is unfortunately man which can tarnish it.

    I’m not having a go at you or trying to be disrespectful but you did say in a response to me that Apostle means messenger of God and you stated that you were a messenger of God – So how did “you” get your authority? You also stated that you have the truth and live by the truth. Isn’t this the same principal your arguing about concerning the OAC? At the end of the day, Brother, the influence of man is still in you whether you like it or not so you are not always going to be correct regardless if your actions are sincere and that definitely includes members (including officers) of the OAC too.

    Look, I would love to chat to you personally to hear your concerns but unfortunately I live in a different country to you. I do wish you all the best though.

    • ABCDEF

      Hi OAC members, Honerable anti-OAC and Everybody who is interested:

      I am a member of OAC and so long as OAC still believe in spiritually revelation of bible, I will be a member of OAC forever.

      Otherwise, if I happen to be fedup for any reason in OAC, I will just stay at home and will not go to any church.

      The question of how does any church start is a very simple thing.

      Please consider this example:–> In 1990, there was a church which split from Old Apostolic Church of Africa because of some disagreement. I was born in OAC and I know this to be a fact. Now, please consider this information about that church which break from OAC.

      Check link: http://www.foundationofapostles.org/constitution.htm

      Please read this section: “2.ESTABLISHMENT AND HEAD”.

      The above link show exactly how a church starts.

      According to me, Christ is a spirit that dwell within a human being. Therefore, the part which says this split church was started by Christ is 100 % correct (check section 2.1).

      Here, I think, I tried to be as honest as possible. If Klibbe started OAC and Klibbe had Christ within. What wrong with that ? Has anything like that never happen in scripture? Yes, we saw a lot of apostles being apostles even if there we not chosen by the son of man “i.e I referred to physical man Jesus Christ).

      My personal view (i.e not OAC) is, Jesus as a man in flesh is not special by any means !! Let the whole world curse me if they have a problem with this statement.

      In OAC we believe in a spirit/gift installed in a person not a person (i.e not physical structure). Hence, we are saying the very same Christ whom you heard about in bible is still with now and have the same authority as the one you heard about in scripture !!

      The spirit which was within him is important to me, and, I know to all the OAC member.

      Thank you !!

  54. Interested Reader

    @chris@ttacc: If you try and teach anyone who does not want to hear the truth, it doesn’t matter which way you do it, it will still yeild the same results. You can be as loving, sincere and humble as you want, the person will still feel offended. So with that being said apologies if I came accross rude. Cant apologies for speaking the truth though.

    If you don’t want me to say Christ, then how can I answer the question? I am going to say it any way, Christ did.

    Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against His church. Is it so far fetch a thought that the church that Jesus built could still be around today? If we don’t believe that, then we don’t have faith that God could protect the church through the years. So His church must still be around today and should be when He comes again or He would be lying. Jesus doesn’t lie.

    Jesus himslef said there is one way and only one way to enter into the kingdom(John 3:5) and it has been laid out as per the request of Steadfast OAC Member. Read also Mark 16:16, Roms 6.1-4 and 1Peter 3:21

    With all due respect, what has visiting Jerusalem have to do with anything? But we have brethren that go all over the world encouraging our brothers where ever they are.

    John 4:19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

    Romans 16:16

  55. Interested Reader

    @Steadfast OAC Church Member: I hear you that man spoils things. This is so true but even though we spoil things what Jesus has done can not be spoiled and His church still exists today and as you pointed out there is only one way to enter the kingdom(John 3:5).

    Everyone claims to have the truth and most of those who make this claim do have the truth, the Bible, but what we do with it determines whether we are truly following the truth?

    John 3:16, Acts 4:11-12 , Mark 16:16

    God Bless.

    • Steadfast OAC Church Member

      Interested Reader:

      Thank you for answering my question. Here is my response to yours…

      Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

      God is a spirit:

      God can also be referred to as power 2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

      Notice how it says God is a spirit and not God is spirit which correlates to God being one of the seven spirits. Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

      To worship God in spirit:

      Most importantly, we have to be on the cross and carry the cross. Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

      If we crucify our wordly thoughts then we are Crucified with Christ like Christ was. Once we banish our wordly thoughts to the outer darkness the spirit of Christ lives in us i.e. we are Christ. Not in a physical sense like Jesus of Nazareth but in spirit.

      How do I know when I am on the cross?

      Based on the 2 new commandments: Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

      If we abide by these commandments then we fulfil the 10 commandments. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

      The vertical part of the cross represents love God above all and the horizontal part represent loving your neighbour as yourself.

      After I have crucified the flesh then I need to do the deed. For deed to manifest I need to make a sacrifice in my life today. If you read the part in Rev 5:6 stood a Lamb as it had been slain. The slaughtering of the Lamb represents what we have to be in order to be Gods servants. We must be submissive, obedient and humble so that the blood can be shed. 1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. The blood that is shed represents the sacrifices we have to make in order to do Gods will. For example, we need to balance the natural work that we do in our lives in order to the spiritual work that’s required not only for ourselves but to help our fellow brothers and sisters with there spiritual growth too (the body of Christ is not one but many). Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
      To worship him in truth:

      To worship God in truth means to bring fourth the light (the understanding) of the Gospel unto people so that the seed maybe sown. Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

      Spirit and truth must go hand in hand though. You cannot have one without the other. In other words, you cannot bring fourth the light unless you possess the spirit of God which is within you. It is only within you when we are on the cross though.

      Once we are on the cross and have the understanding then we must shed the blood and do the works by embracing the gifts of the Apostle, Evangelist, Prophet, Pasta and Teacher that us within us. Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; We then must use all of these gifts either singularly or simultaneously to bring fourth the light.

      So in summary:

      God is a spirit/power which is within us. To worship the lord in sprit we must allow the spirit of God/power which dwells in us to lead and guide us. To do this, we need to be on the cross by crucifying our wordly thoughts so that the spirit of God can guide us in the works. For the works to happen we have to make a sacrifice in our lives which means we have shed the blood i.e. we have to take action. As a result of doing the works via the spirit of God which is within us allows us as instruments to bring fourth the understanding of the Gospel.

      Intersted Reader, I hope that you find explanation satisfactory and that it allows you to see the light. I have to admit though, I find this very challenging through the net as certain topics might not be understood in the correct context and that goes for your responses you have provided us all too.

      I think you and everyone here are very wise and know the scriptures very well. My advice would be for you to keep testing the spirits as Former OAC has suggested until you find and experience the joy, peace and righteousness.

  56. Steadfast OAC Church Member

    Dear All,

    In retrospect, even though I don’t fully support internet evangelism, I still think that I could have entered into this discussion from a better angle. After reading over my posts, I don’t think they have been very constructive from a learning standpoint. In fact, it’s probably resulted in the opposite. Unfortunately my ego got the better of me and has consequently tarnished the true message I have been trying to portray as an Old Apostolic and I apologize to the people who have been contributing on this thread that I may have offended.

    I don’t have all the answers and I can only bring fourth to the table the experiences and knowledge I have personally encountered thus far while I have served in this faith. I’m not here to convince or persuade people, I’m only here to share the knowledge that I have in my mind of understanding.

    For any of you who are interested in hearing more about the OAC the most important aspect that needs to be addressed first and foremost is the foundation. That begins with learning and understanding the creation. Once people understand how we interpret the creation, regardless of whether people choose to believe it or not, people will at least have a much clearer picture of how we comprehend the rest of the scriptures.

    Furthermore, particularly from a learning perspective, I don’t think anything can beat talking to somebody face to face about these topics. You can at least get things clarified and off your chest right there and then as opposed to misunderstandings and our emotions getting the better of us. I can see that this has happened already based on what has been said in this blog. Once anger sets in it becomes difficult to communicate effectively.

    May you all be blessed in abundance both spiritually as well as naturally!

    Steadfast OAC Member

    • ABCDEF

      Indeed, preaching using other means other than mouth don’t always work. Otherwise, we could have printed our doctrine and let people read for themselves. That is why, we go face-face on Mondays and Thursdays. Honestly speaking, there is no believe which make sense that the OAC believe.

      During Mondays and Thursdays, we start our testimony with a prayer. This ensures that whoever we testify to should not be because of our reasoning wisdom, but according to the will of the living God (i.e Word). If while on testimony, we are not being understood, we leave that soul to God.

      We do nothing, but God just decide what need to be done.

      There is no believe which indicates that there are still apostle than the OAC.

      Hower people will not stop talking or have their own perception.

      Please look at http://www.met.org.za/traktate/old_apostolic_church.htm

      These are just persecutions. Let me tell you one thing that I know, the persecutor will go back to OAC when s/he is tired of persecution. I gues it is because “Once OAC always OAC”. And again, when the spirit become thirsty, the spirit will never defy the OAC’s spiritual interpretation which comes from God.

      Leave those thirsty spirits, don’t reply to them. Their home is still open.
      .

  57. cris@ttacc

    what a simple question, yet no one is willing to answer it.interested reader, steadfast apostolic member, former oac member and the rest.please tell me why you believe in what you believe.who formed the ‘church’ you are in?as long as your church comes from the roman catholic church, please try today and consider your self as a schismatic believer who never had physical contact with jesus christ.such churches come from the wisdom of men and fallen angels who point to ways that the bible does not tell us about (col2:16).where does your organisation in which you worship come from? what authority does it have proof of?

    • Interested Reader

      Hi cris@ttacc

      Actually I did answer your question maybe you didn’t see my reply. Romans 16:16

      http://www.churches-of-christ.ws/

      Regards.

    • abcdef

      QUESTION: Please tell me why you believe in what you believe.

      ANSWER: Believe is subjective and it is based on individual choice.
      Normally, one will believe in a belief which is relevant to his/her life.
      Sometime believe is driven by person’s background. For example, I was born
      In OAC — Probably, if I was born in another country which don’t have
      Christinity dominating, I could have being believing in another
      belief.

      QUESTION: Who formed the ‘church’ you are in?

      ANSWER: In OAC way, your question is vague and need more interpretation.
      However, if church means something like a political party, then the answer is
      this “church/disciplined soul” was founded by human being who had God the WORD within.

      STATEMENT: As long as your church comes from the roman catholic church, please try today and consider
      your self as a schismatic believer who never had physical contact with Jesus Christ. such churches come
      from the wisdom of men and fallen angels who point to ways that the bible does not tell us about (col2:16).

      ANSWER: Ok. Did any OAC member complain? Or rather, did they force you to be a member?

      QUESTION: where does your organisation in which you worship come from?

      ANSWER: I am not sure about the organization. However, the church belong to God and we believe God used and is still using Human Beings.

      QUESTION: What authority does it have proof of?

      ANSWER: This is depending on what kind of proof is acceptable/enough to you. I am not sure if anyone knows about the proof that you are looking for. However, if you are looking for proof within the bible, I am sorry we don’t do online testimony. Reason: All our testimony is open by a prayer. Every Mondays and Thursdays we go on the field (i.e. meaning to testify to people) and before going to the field we start with a prayer so that every soul that we testify to should not hear fleshly-human being talking, but God.

      Interesting question would be “what happen if they don’t accept/understand and decide
      what is being testified is rubbish”? The answer is nothing since they don’t say NO to human-being, rather they say NO to the one who send that human being God.

      We are just tools which are used by God.

      I hope, I have tried to answer your questions as short as possible and straight to a point. Please understand that this belief is from God. Yes, also say that theirs come from GOD also.

      We believe we were chosen by GOD and as you know there is a difference between being chosen and being invited. However, GOD knows about all of us, the chosen + the invited.

      Please note that I will not be saying a lot since, I told you, we open any testimony with a prayer so that even the stubborn one would see GOD speaking not human being.

      In that note, please note that seeking truth is not a problem.

      You might be interested in visiting these halls:

      http://www.oldapostolic.com/oachome.asp

      Please note that if you find any loop holes in what was written here, it is
      normal.

  58. chris@ttacc

    please note this,no personalities against the oac.i just wanted to hear everyone speak on their background.however it is interesting that only they (oac) are keen to answer the questions in due faith and respect.why are the others quiet?it means they dont know what they are leading others to (blind guides).it would be better then if they kept quiet for ever than criticise others.

  59. Interested Reader

    cris@ttacc, this is the 3rd you have asked and the 3rd time I am answering your question.

    Romans 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the *churches of Christ* greet you.

    http://www.churches-of-christ.ws/

    Regards.

  60. Steadfast OAC Member

    Dear All,

    As it has already been nicely put, it is very important that godly discussions are opened up in prayer, and then once finished, they have to be closed off. The reasons for doing this have been outlined already.

    As much as I would love to try an answer every ones questions and assist people in understanding the OAC, I have to refrain because my input would only be coming from the old man’s perspective and not Gods. I have already fallen victim to this.

    The OAC loves questions. As long as you sincerely desire the truth without having an agenda then there is nothing wrong with questioning. Questioning is the only way to you are going to understand but there is a time and a place for asking questions.

    Because there are so many different perspectives coming from the “big I am” contained within this blog all I taste is sour grapes and all see is mist. There is no light or fruitfulness coming from this discussion at all.

    If people wish to understand and learn more about the OAC then the best thing for you to do is to go talk to someone who is already in the OAC. They can then assist you from there.

    Kind Regards

    • abcdef

      Dear All,

      I agree with brother steadfast OAC member.

      Furthermore, I as OAC member know for certain that the belief of the OAC is easy to access. For example, OAC normally has bread-breaking service almost every Wednesdays. Therefore, personally, I believe any person who is really interested in what we believe can make any effort to go to these services and ask as many questions as they can.

      I have never seen any person in my whole life that saw light after being to the truth via internet. It was going to be extremely strange for those who don’t understand/disagree to end up understanding/agreeing.

      The last thing to note is that God anointed ordinary human being to be the Apostles (i.e. within OAC). I know most Apostles have internet access also. However, I have never seen any of them trying to reason their calling via internet. Why are they not here on internet with us? The reason is that in most OAC member’s soul, it needs to be emphasized that internet testimony will never bring light to anyone. It does not matter how much the member tries.

      The important note that we need to check is that sometime even when we go to the field (i.e. on Mondays and Thursday), you will find that you don’t even explain too much about the belief. However, miraculously you end up with a soul (i.e. the person whom you testify to) deciding to be in OAC church. How is that? The reason is that we pray for every testimony.

      As we are trying to bring light through internet, I can assure every OAC member that even after 10 years or more of trying to bring this light to those who don’t understand/agree they will still disagree/misunderstand. In most cases, they will try asking same question in different style. Why? – I think, it is all about trying to find a loop hole in what was put by God in the OAC soul.

      OAC is a belief out of this world!!

      • Another member of the OAC

        this is for staedfast & abcdf, I’m glad we still have brothers and sisters like u in the church, i’ve learnt a lot here 2day about our church and it’s all thanks to u guys.

        and i have to say ur defin8ly ryt when u say OAC is a belief out of this world, i thank God everyday for making part of this body.
        i am and always b a member of the OAC and i aint afraid 2 say it.

  61. Zenzile Peter Khetsha

    Everything has an origin,and I salute Apostle Klibb. I understand and interprete Bible more spiritually than in a sense of flesh! Thank you! Its impossible to male a research on OAC researchers! One other thing, Bible is just a guider to heaven, nothing more!

  62. Connected

    Interesting column from all involved.
    One question though: In the OAC they speak about the Emmanuel Principal (God In Man)
    Please shed some light on this.

  63. Just me

    Do the AOC believe their is a real hell with real fire?

    • abcdefg

      Hello Just me,

      If you are referring to natural fire (e.g like coal fire), the short answer is OAC don’t believe in the natural kind of fire.

  64. Blackheath Congregation

    Just as you “Former members” are saying and asking what you are ,so did Jesus own people,and his words were before he closed his eyes “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”

  65. Blackheath Congregation

    “Connected”, Read John 1 from the first verse.

  66. Johan

    Answer just YES or NO please.
    Do the OAC believe:
    1. There is not a real hell and fire in the earth?
    2. That GOD is not in heaven in the sky above?
    3. That the WHOLE Bible is spiritual?
    4. God Him self is in the OAC members bodies?
    5. That ones a year the apostel open the heaven, then the souls who repent after death can enter and find rest?
    6. You must write down all your dreams and hand it to your priest to lay it out for you?
    7. That Jesus already come to those who repent in the OAC?
    8. That woman must wear hats?
    9. That Adam and Eve was not the only people on earth?
    10. That the apostel, priest, elder, underdiaken and all members of the OAC can smoke if they wish to? Because to smoke is no sin? That the priest and who ever read out of the Bible and after prayer in a house sell group, may smoke if he/she wish to?
    PLEASE ANSWER JUST YES OR NO TO THE ABOVE. . . . Sample.
    1. Yes
    2. No
    Thanks so much.

  67. Blackheath Congregation

    Yes and No Johan. But if you want ,i can testify to each and eevery question you asked.By the way if i may ask,which church do you belong to?

  68. Another member of the OAC

    Johan, i think u already know the answers to all the questions u asked, i kina get the feeling that u were once a member of the church.

    Blackheath thank u Brother/sister anyway m a steadfast member of the OAC, always have been and always will be, I’m grateful for this sight coz it’s given me sum insight about my church and it’s given me hope that as long as I have brothers and sisters like u and Steadfast, OAC will go on.

    I think it’s sad though that some people hv turned their backs on us, i don’t know how/ where they found the courage to just walk away from the only truth “i” know.

  69. Blackheath Congregation

    Ofcause,We are the body of our Christ and so do one hand wash the other,and so does the right help the left up to the mouth.

  70. Johan

    Just a fast question to the oac’s.
    Who knows the Bible better than any human?

  71. Another member of the OAC

    it’s not about who knows the bible better than who, it’s about how u understand it and how u interpret it, I can give u all sorts of quotes from the bible but if I don’t really understand what they mean then it wouldn’t really help now would it?

  72. former OAC member

    Hi everyone,

    A couple of months ago I asked a simple question and still no answer. I even said if someone can give me a valid answer and prove it biblicaly, I will return to the OAC.

    Now, Johan asked a couple of simple questions and expects simple answers “Yes” or “No” and still you can’t answer.

    Another member of the OAC qouted : “I think it’s sad though that some people hv turned their backs on us, i don’t know how/ where they found the courage to just walk away from the only truth “i” know.”

    You are 100% right. I turned my back on YOU and turned towards GOD. Of course you are also 100% correct when you said that it is the only truth YOU know. I don’t blame you for that.

    All your responses are based on the doctrine you were taught and not of the knowledge from God. It was all given to you by men who claim to be”apostles” and “officers” and you accept it blindly just like any other religion ie: muslims, jews, catholics, etc. They too only believe a doctrine that some MAN initiated years ago and believe that it is the only thruth they know. Just because you believe in something, that does’nt make it right.

    When I was a faithful member of the OAC, the only truth I knew was OAC. I was faithful to a lie that was taught. I believed just like you that the rest of the world or the “world” does not know Jesus at all. That they worship a Jesus that is dead. That they worship a Jesus in flesh and the only true way is the OAC way. This was the lie that was planted in my mind ever since I can remember. I guess this is one tactic of satan to keep you from the truth. This way you would not even dare to go search for the truth, because according to you, you already know it. I want to encourage each one of you, to seek the Truth. I want to encourage you to pray about it and start studying the Word. It won’t do you any harm. If you want to be certain of your salvation, then pray and ask God to show you if you are on the right track. By doing this, you are not testing God. You are testing the men that installed this doctrine in you. The Bible urges us to test these spirits. Give it a shot. Pray about it and don’t stop until you find the answer.

    Regards
    Former OAC member.

  73. Johan

    Amen! Former aoc member. Powerful words!
    I just want to say something here, that is VERY VERY important.
    Please i don’t want any troubles for say what im gonna say now.
    Just simple POWERFUL FACTS.
    Yes i was in the oac for 4 years.
    The question is how did i become a oac?
    I deacon (afrikaans) start asking me some tricky questions, that i could not get answers in the Bible, ON THAT TIME OF MY LIFE.
    Because i had not got scripture knowledge at THAT TIME, so i join them.
    As i grow in the Word of God, i start reading OTHER spiritual books , then some question start came in my head, and i told the priest i read other books.
    Then he told me that i must stop reading other spiritual books, IT WILL CONFUSE ME, AND ALL THAT BOOKS IS WORLDLY BOOKS. Huh! I think.
    There i start to think something weird is going on, that he told me that.
    Then i start my search all round.
    I buy all Rebecca Brown’s books.
    O MY O MY!! I just know then that im in a NON CHRISTIAN CHURCH.
    . . . . . . Cont. . .

    • Brother B

      Why do you need clarity from other “spiritual” books which are based upon mans wisdom when you have the bible?

      Not everyone will understand. That is why Jesus spoke in parables to the people who did not understand.

      Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

      Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

  74. Johan

    Anycase, after joined the OAC i try to read the Bible and understand it the way it realy must read, i just know something is NOT RIGHT i just can’t understand the Bible us i did before i join the OAC.
    After research i were blowing of my feet!!
    I findout i got a OAC DEMON who enter my body and took controle of my mind, every time i try to read the Bible the OAC DEMON twist the Word in my mind, that were IROTATING AND I START TO GET CROSS AT THE DEMON, BECAUSE HOW HARD I TRY TO READ THE BIBLE WITH ALL MY CONCENTRATING, I JUST COULDN’T WIN! Grrrr!
    I then went to a councaler in a other church.
    He let that OAC DEMON left my body in Jesus Christ Name. . . Amen! . . . Thank You Lord!
    When i came at home and start to read the Bible again. . . . . Tears come out my eyes. . . . . I COULD AND STILL CAN UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE AS IT IS WRITTEN. . . I thank God Almighty in heaven in the sky!
    I do not judge any OAC that is the work of God.
    I just want to give my testomony here.
    And yes! The reason i ask: “WHO KNOWS THE BIBLE BETTER THAN ANY HUMAN ON EARTH”
    Because it is VERY VERY IMPORTENT to know this answer.
    The ones who knows the Bible better than any human being is:
    1. GOD THE FATHER.
    2. JESUS CHRIST.
    3. HOLY SPIRIT.
    4. GODS ANGELS.
    This 4 WILL NEVER NEVER LIE TO OUR MINDS, THEY WILL ALWAYS ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH TO OUR MINDS!!
    Then you get others who knows the Bible also better than any human on earth.
    1. SATAN.
    2. DEMONS.(SATAN’S ANGELS/EVIL SPIRITS)
    THIS 2 ARE THE ONES THAT LIE AND BELIEVE ME KNOW HOW TO TWIST THE WORD OF GOD!
    Why there is so much devr. church’s? Al of them CAN’T be right it is imposible!!
    YES THATS RIGHT SATAN IS BEHIND IT. You know why??
    “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. ” (Hosea 4:6).
    And you know what EVERY SINGLE CHURCH KNOW THIS VERSE! Hows that? Because satan know the Bible better than any human.
    Believe me! . . . . We can attack each other here with Bible verses for 5 years, for every verse im going to give you to make my point, the OAC DEMON will give you also one to state your point.
    The point i want to make here.
    THE OAC MEMBERS IS NO MORE IN CONTROLE OF THEIR MINDS!!
    DEMONS ARE!
    THE PROBLEM HERE, IS JUST THIS:
    THE OAC MEMBERS BELIEVE THEY ARE NOT NOT NOT WRONG! . . Why is that?
    Its very simple. As i already stated. . . The demons is in controle.
    Do you think you can ignore this post?
    NEVER NEVER!
    You going to attack me with the verses the demon is going to give you.(not the Holy Spirit)
    I know what im talking about, i were there.
    (sorry for spelling, im afrikaans. Hehehe!)
    I know EVERY tricky question the OAC have. . . And believe me i got ALL the answers, because God told me this.
    “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. ” (Isaiah 34:16).
    AND:
    “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. ” (Hosea 4:6).

    We have to remember!
    MAKE SURE THAT WHEN YOU REARCH THE WORD OF GOD.
    To ask the HOLY SPIRIT to take over.
    Because, believe me! . . Just the other day 2 mormon church members was here, and told me just what i said here. I PRAYED TO GOD TO SHOW ME IF IM ON THE RIGHT PATH, AND HE ANSWERED ME. IM SURELY ON THE RIGHT PATH.
    Before the demons start their attack, i bind them, and the 2 members of this acult was still. THE HOLY SPIRIT them gave me the change to give them some facts out of the Bible.
    Remember they believe that God the Father got a spirit wife and satan is their son two. AND THEY BELIEVE VERY VERY VERY STRONG THEY ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH! . . Why? . .
    DEMONS ARE IN CONTROLE OF THEIR MINDS!!

  75. Johan

    Anycase, go to this link, its about a former member of the OAC.
    http://www.met.org.za/htm/Engels/Old%20Apostolic%20churches.htm
    What i learned, there is realy no sense to ague about this. Because we not fight the guy or girl/woman behind their pc or phone but the evil spirits who controle their minds.
    “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ” (Ephesians 6:12).”
    Another thing to think of is:
    Who is our biggest enemy?

  76. Johan

    I Rather Do What Jesus did.
    > God Does Not Defend Himself
    >
    > A curious thing about God is that He never seems to defend
    > Himself! This is important for us to understand as we face the
    > daily spiritual battle.
    >
    > Humans usually interpret silence on the part of someone being
    > accused as guilt. But this is wrong when God is accused.
    >
    > Jesus never argued with anyone. God gave His Word. You either
    > believe it or you don’t. God doesn’t beg you to believe in Him,
    > or try to convince you against your will.
    >
    > MARK 15:3-5 NKJ
    > 3 And the chief priests accused Him of many things, but He
    > answered nothing.
    > 4 Then Pilate asked Him again, saying, “Do You answer nothing?
    > See how many things they testify against You!”
    > 5 But Jesus still answered nothing, so that Pilate marveled.
    >
    > Although the Gospel of John says Jesus talked some with Pilate,
    > He did not in any way defend Himself.
    >
    > Who do you think tells us that God is bad? Who puts those
    > thoughts in your mind?
    >
    > REVELATION 12:10 NKJ
    > 10 . . . for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them
    > before our God day and night, has been cast down.
    >
    > The Bible reveals satan is the accuser. The devil accuses us
    > before God, and accuses God to us. We need to learn, like God,
    > to ignore what the devil says.
    >
    > Ignoring what the devil says is a way to resist him. When he
    > brings thoughts of doubt to us, but we don’t act on his lies or
    > speak them, we are resisting the devil. We cast down whatever
    > is against God’s Word by not accepting it or speaking it.
    >
    > It is probably safe to say that satan is either author or
    > supporter of all thoughts which accuse God of wrong. Because
    > satan is behind accusations against God, you can see why God
    > would not stoop to defend Himself against them.
    >
    > God’s loving actions throughout history, including dying on the
    > cross for us, speak in God’s defense. He has no need of any
    > other defense for an honest, searching person open to truth. We
    > should not blame God for evil and bad things. God is not
    > guilty!
    >
    > JOB 40:2,8 NLT
    > 2 “Do you still want to argue with the Almighty? You are God’s
    > critic, but do you have the answers?”
    > 8 “Will you discredit my justice and condemn me just to prove
    > you are right?
    >
    > Throughout the book of Job many negative things were said about
    > God, questioning His justice. But when God came on the scene He
    > did not respond to any of the accusations (Job 38-42). God did
    > not defend Himself nor explain Himself. All God said was
    > basically, “Who are you?” and “What do you know?”
    >
    > Instead of responding to the negative accusations, God turned
    > the focus to whether humans are really qualified to judge God.
    >
    > Job’s response was to repent and admit he didn’t know what he
    > had been talking about (Job 42:3,6).
    >
    > If we are honest, we have to admit there is much we don’t know,
    > and we are not now fully qualified to judge God. Just because
    > we don’t understand everything that happens is no reason for us
    > to condemn God.
    >
    > Imagine trying to explain something complicated to a one-year-
    > old child. No matter how smart we may think we are, compared to
    > God we are no doubt very much like a one-year-old child in our
    > understanding of many things.
    >
    > Because God does not defend Himself, and we lack total
    > understanding, our faith is sometimes tested. Doubts arise in
    > our minds. But we should never doubt that God is good and just.
    > He deserves our faith. We may not understand, but that is not
    > proof that God is guilty.
    >
    > Why should God defend Himself? He is the judge, and He knows He
    > is innocent! Also, God knows all the accusations against Him
    > originate with His enemy, the devil.
    >
    > In the Bible, God has already revealed the truth about who is
    > responsible for all the bad things that happen. We need to go
    > to the Bible for our answers. God has already revealed truth to
    > us through His written Word, so why should He repeat Himself?
    >
    > One day God may defend Himself and explain all that He has
    > done. But it will be at a time when we are able to fully
    > comprehend. It won’t be because God has to defend Himself, but
    > rather because He enjoys sharing with His children.
    >
    > SAY THIS: God has no need to defend Himself. He is perfect!

    My email:
    gjdutoit1@gmail.com
    *SHALOM*

    • Steadfast OAC Member

      Johan:

      I’m not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the content of what you have posted, the more important aspect about your post I’d like to question, that the Spirit is showing me, is about whether or not the content is based on your own understanding or is this from another source?

      To the rest of the OAC members:

      Don’t be tempted by these dark spirits; allow them to let there water run because all of the negative comments above are folly. Negative comments like the ones I’ve just read are only derived from the prince of darkness. Stay steadfast and continue to exhibit the love, determination, faith, longsuffering and obedience.

      Be thankful that you have been chosen to be an instrument of God and that we are blessed with the spiritual knowledge and wisdom.

      Lets all strive to be victorious shepards.

      Regards,

      Steadfast OAC Member

  77. former OAC member

    Amen!

    • Steadfast OAC Member

      Former OAC Member:

      You asked some questions several months ago:

      “So how do you know that Klibbe received the Holy Spirit? Who baptized him? Did Christ give him the authority? Where is the prove?”

      The True Sealing (receiving the Holy Spirit) is a constant process. Klibbe received the Holy Spirit through having a spiritual mindset which allowed him to be spiritually gifted aiding him in performing the righteous deeds. It is only through his faith and his obedience in doing the will of God, he, as an instrument, was able to receive the Holy Spirit. This is the same process we all must undergo if we are to receive the Holy Spirit.

      The True Baptism is another spiritual process that occurs daily. The water represents the word and it is through the washing (putting off former conversation with the old man) of the word (water) we are cleansed (Baptized). This is how Klibbe was Baptized, and again, this is not a once only event, it a constant process we all must undergo.

      The Spirit of God which dwells within is us a instruments is no different to the same Spirit which dwelled within Jesus of Nazareth when he was an Apostle. Therefore, the Spirit of God that dwelled within Klibbe (just like Jesus of Nazareth) is what gave him the authority to be an Apostle.

      Was there an Apostle to ordain Jesus before he became an Apostle of the Church? If there was not an Apostle before Jesus, where did Jesus get his authority from? Like Klibbe, his authority must have originated from the Spirit of God.

      You will find proof through observing their works and you will know them by there fruits.

      Regards,

      Steadfast OAC Member

    • Steadfast OAC Member

      Former OAC Member:

      Your question has been answered several times now. Whether you choose to believe our answers or not is not mine or the OAC’s problem. If you are that certain that the OAC is wrong why do you still bother to come here and continue to ask questions? If you are content in what you believe in then so are we but don’t come here to condemn the OAC.

      I think that we all deserve to hear your proof now as to your comment you made several months ago regarding the creation:

      “O….and about the creation…. It is physical. God spoke this world into existence, and there is proof that this happened.”

      Please answer my questions pertaining to the following text verses please:

      Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

      In verse 2, if it says the earth was without form, and void. How then, can the Spirit of God move across the face of the waters if the physcial earth hasn’t been created yet?

      Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
      Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
      Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

      Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

      How could there be light on the first day if the two greater lights i.e. the sun and the moon weren’t made until the third day?

      Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
      Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the

      Why is only the dry land being referred to as the Earth? If this is referring to the physical creation of planet earth then why is only the dry land referred to as the earth? Shouldn’t planet earth encompass everything?

      Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

      In verse 1 God created the heaven and the earth. Is he referring to the planet earth or the dry land which he referred to as the earth in verse 10?

      Gen 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

      Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

      Are these two text verses contradicting one another. Is the dove that returned to Noah an actual dove or does the dove represent something else?

      Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
      Mar 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

      Is the earth that is being referred to in the above text verses the same earth that is referred to as in Genesis?

      Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.

      Is John speaking of a different light to the light we read of in Genesis?

      Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

      How is it possible for the evening to occur before the morning in a day? Shouldn’t a day consist of morning first followed by the evening?

      The OAC would love to hear the Good News perspective and understanding pertaining to these text verses and questions I have presented to you. Thank you.

      Sincerely,

      Steadfast OAC Member

  78. former OAC member

    Steadfast OAC member:

    Before I go into the physical creation, allow me to comment on some of your questions and comments in your previous response.

    Your question: “Was there an Apostle to ordain Jesus before he became an Apostle of the Church?”
    My response: Please tell me you were not serious when you asked this question. Are you comparing Jesus with the rest of the Apostles?. Matthew 3:17 “And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

    Your comment: “The True Baptism is another spiritual process that occurs daily. The water represents the word and it is through the washing (putting off former conversation with the old man) of the word (water) we are cleansed (Baptized). This is how Klibbe was Baptized, and again, this is not a once only event, it a constant process we all must undergo.”
    My response: If water baptism is interpreted as a spiritual baptism, then please explain to me what happened in Acts 8:35 – 36 “Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? “. So if the word is water, then is’nt the preaching of Philip already water to the eunuch? Why after the preaching the eunuch gave order to stop the chariot because they saw real water? Was the eunuch baptized twice in spiritual water? See the meaning of the word “baptism” from the greek and hebrew dictionaries:
    βαπτίζω
    baptizō
    bap-tid’-zo
    to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: – baptist, baptize, wash.

    Your comment: “Your question has been answered several times now. Whether you choose to believe our answers or not is not mine or the OAC’s problem. If you are that certain that the OAC is wrong why do you still bother to come here and continue to ask questions? If you are content in what you believe in then so are we but don’t come here to condemn the OAC.”
    My response:
    The answer you have provided is not valid. It is simply a believe of everyone in the OAC. You do not have the proof. You are following something which you have heard from others and not from the Word of God. Many other religions believe in something(which they can’t prove) so strongly and they believe they are right. What makes the OAC so different? I am content in what I believe. I am not here to ask these questions for myself, but to help you ask these questions to yourself. I am not here to condemn the OAC. What do OAC do when they testify to others from the “world”? You help them to see that they are on the wrong track. So, I am doing just that. I am trying to help you to see that you are not on the same track as God’s Word instructs.

    Your comment: “You will find proof through observing their works and you will know them by there fruits.”
    My response: It was a real shock to me when I observed their works. That was the first thing that started my doubt in the OAC. I know this is uncomfortable for you, but unfortunately it was all bad fruits. This was not my judgement, but the judgement of God’s Word. Thank you for mentioning it.

    This creation study can be lengthly, so I will start with day 1 of the creation in my next post.

    Former OAC member.

  79. former OAC member

    Just before I start with the proof of God’s creation, I want to ask you, by whom or by what and how do you think the earth was created? Answer one of the following:

    A. God spoke the world into existence in 6 days. Earth is 6000 years old.
    B. Big Bang, dinosaur and evolution theory, hence the earth billions of years old.
    C. God used the big bang to create the heavens and the earth, hence earth is billions of years old.
    D. You don’t care and it’s not important.
    E. God did not create the earth. The earth was here before God.

    Do believe the way Jesus was born and the wya He ascended into heaven was a miracle or not? Was it God’s work or science? Does it make scientificaly sense?

    • Steadfast OAC Member

      Former OAC Member,

      I’m not trying to be rude, but all I seem to be doing here is answering your questions. So respectfully, I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions now please…

      Just to be perfectly clear, I do believe God created Earth. I don’t agree with you though that Genesis justifies a physical creation. The grace of God is beyond anyone’s comprehension, even from a scientific standpoint. The mistake your making when reading Genesis is that because YOU think the Bible is scientifically accurate and YOU believe science can prove it YOU therefore assume that Genesis is about a physical creation which took place. Your reading the creation like a story book. I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but as soon as you start saying that the bible is scientifically accurate then you are linking this assumption to scientific theories which haven’t necessarily been proven yet. How can your proof be valid then? All this accomplishes is doubt and never-ending scientific arguments. Is this fruitful? Do you really think that the Lord intended the creation to be understood this way? This is how a person with a carnal mind would look at Genesis.

      Read these text verses and read them closely:

      1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

      Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

      Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

      1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

      1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
      1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
      1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
      1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
      1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
      1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

      Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

      If the Genesis itself is speaking of a physical creation then give me one example of where Jesus or the Apostles are preaching about a physical creation? And if you cant find one example, then ask yourself why?

      Regards,

      Steadfast OAC Member

  80. Steadfast OAC Member

    You said: Please tell me you were not serious when you asked this question. Are you comparing Jesus with the rest of the Apostles?. Matthew 3:17 “And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

    No. I’m not in anyway making a direct comparison. The point that I’m illustrating, is that, the Holy Spirit is what gave Jesus the authority to do his works. (Mat 3:16) And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him. Verse 17 is a formality because of what happened in verse 16. Do we as instruments receive the same Holy Spirit? Absolutely! Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you in water, but He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Once receiving the Holy Spirit, do we as instruments also become sons of God? Yes! Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Klibbe was a believer and because he had faith in the living Word he possessed the same Holy Spirit as Jesus and this is what gave him the authority. (1Co 2:12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1Co 2:13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    You said: So if the word is water, then is’nt the preaching of Philip already water to the eunuch? Why after the preaching the eunuch gave order to stop the chariot because they saw real water? Was the eunuch baptized twice in spiritual water?

    No. The eunuch was not baptized twice, it only occurred once. Philip is preaching living water but this doesn’t confirm that the eunuch has been baptized yet. It’s not until the eunuch understands in verse 36 and said, See, here is water. Meaning, he starts to make sense of this spiritual water that is being uttered. Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. In verse 37, it wasn’t until the eunuch had faith in the Word he was able to be baptized. Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.. Joh 1:12. Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Now read verse 39 and tell me, have you been to any physical water baptisms where the person who is baptizing just disappears all of a sudden?! Did you actually read this verse? 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Oh, by the way, when reading Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree, what do you think the Lord thinks of eunuch’s then?

    Read this, Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One Baptism means one baptism and it is a spiritual baptism that occurs daily. 1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. Read what Jesus commands, Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:. Jesus doesn’t mention anything about baptizing with physical water. This is not my definition, this is a clear commandment given by Jesus. God’s baptism can only come from spiritual water (the Word). Furthermore, please provide me with one example where the Apostles used physical water to perform Baptisms? You will find that the Apostles did as Jesus commanded as we read in Mat 28:19.

    You said: The answer you have provided is not valid. It is simply a believe of everyone in the OAC. You do not have the proof. You are following something which you have heard from others and not from the Word of God. Many other religions believe in something(which they can’t prove) so strongly and they believe they are right. What makes the OAC so different? I am content in what I believe. I am not here to ask these questions for myself, but to help you ask these questions to yourself. I am not here to condemn the OAC. What do OAC do when they testify to others from the “world”? You help them to see that they are on the wrong track. So, I am doing just that. I am trying to help you to see that you are not on the same track as God’s Word instructs.

    My answers are valid. This is not a OAC belief, this is all clearly stated in the scriptures. I’m sorry sounding blunt but I’m afraid you possess a carnal mind which is why you cant understand my answers. Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. You specifically asked, (a) How did klibbe receive the Holy Spirit?, (b) Who baptized him?, and (c) Did Christ give him the authority? I have explained it for you again.

    Regards,
    Steadfast OAC Member

  81. Interested Reader

    “Furthermore, please provide me with one example where the Apostles used physical water to perform Baptisms? – Steadfast OAC Member”

    Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things,(A) the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among(B) the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because(C) the gift of the Holy Spirit(D) was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them(E) speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47(F) “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit(G) just as we have?” 48And he(H) commanded them(I) to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

    • Steadfast OAC Member

      Interested Reader:

      What gives you the idea that “physcial” water is being used or dscribed in Act 10:44-48?

      Act 10:44-48

      (44) While Peter yet SPAKE these WORDS, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which HEARD the WORD.

      This is spiritual water (living water) he is preaching not physical water. The Holy Spirit is not physical water and does not fall on somebody like the pouring of physical water.

      (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

      This verse indicates that anyone who BELIVES can be Baptized through the WORD. Jews (circumcised) and non-Jews (Gentiles) are converted the same way through ONE Baptism, not two. Read, Eph 4:5. No physical water has been used in this verse.

      (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
      (47) Can any man forbid water (the Word), that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
      (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

      Verses 46-48 reiterate what I have just said. ANYBODY who believes, hears and understands the word (spiritual water) is able to be baptized. This is why in verse 45 the Jews were astonished. Again, where exactly is there any direct indication physical water is used in any of these verses?

      Peter is clearly carrying out what Jesus commanded in Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:. He was also reminded again in Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

      Regards,

      Steadfast OAC Memeber

      • Bible Believer

        Hello dear sir.
        If you take take the Holy Communion spiritually(soul) and physically (naturally-strength) and mentally (mind) and whole-heartedly(heart) then why only be baptized with a spiritual Word?

        Deuteronomy 6:5 “You shall love the Lord Your GOD with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”

        Yours honestly seeking the Truth

        A servant

  82. PETER

    I’m the full member of the OAC, brothers it is no good to fight with the word of God. We don’t have to use the word as a weapon to fight against one another. God is there to gudge at the end, everything will have in Jesus Christ’s name. So, we’ve got to preach the Gospel of Life and Death of Jesus Christ. We won’t be judged by the church or denominationally, but the grace of the Lord. I quote GALATIANS 2:15-17, we’ll be judged by faith not by the law. In fact we should put our faith to Jusus Christ and then we shall be saved. I f we can go through the entire chapters of Galatians, we’ll know that salvation is on Jesus Christ (The Lord) of wich our faith should be.

    The denominations that we’re in won’t save us at the end of the day but Jusus will. Lets’ not crack our skulls with so many questions that we couldn’t answer. We can’t know all the secrets of the Lord, other things are hiden from our minds.

    May the grace of the Lord be with you all?
    Regards
    B. Peter.

  83. Angel

    Former OA Member ,i can sense you have allot of anger in you! So why don’t you get help for yourself!

    And get ride of your anger,please

  84. Interested Reader

    former OAC member said that he was asking these questions to help you to ask the same questions but clearly you don’t want to.

    So if you are content then so be it.

  85. As I scroll down the pages I see man mind seeking answers. I see his need to understand and I ask – Oh man mind why do you live with such confusion, is it because you see what you do or think in two and do you not know that there is one truth, one Word, ONE GOD which is Word and it is this which will set you free……………….I say child come away from complications and open your mind peacefully, listen, think and ask, in this you will test all things for truth and when you desire it with all you heart it will come.

  86. Bible Believer

    Jesus started His Church in about the year 33 A.D.
    The Old Apostolic Church started about 1832 A.D.
    What was the true Church between then? And how did they worship GOD, just in Spirit or in Spirit and in Truth?

  87. Another OAC Member

    I agree with former OAC and interrested reader and bible believer. Everyone in here has valid points. The most valid would be the study of the scriptures. I have studied the old afrikaans translation, the king james and the direct translation from aramic to english. My answers only geared me toward the OAC, even when I rebelled, I started my own little conquest studying the scriptures to prove the OAC wrong, but alas, after 2 years of intense ‘braining’ I humbled myself before God and His church, the OAC.

    You want proof that Klibbe had his authority, well, you are all speaking of Paul that was given authority by Jesus, by seeing a blinding light, am I right … redundent question …

    In Paul’s own words, what was this light that he saw ? Read 2 Kor 4:6

    God speaks in how many different ways, please enlighten me, for I read only of a few in Job 33.

    How did God enlighten you to leave the church ?? Just asking. If not through a dream or vision, then how, because He does not speak in other ways. Unless you would like to add a little bit of your own knowledge to the scriptures, which is strongly prohibbited.

    Klibbe got his authority from dreams given to the apostles of that time, and when those Apostles decided to change the church, he wouldn’t let them. So they stripped him from his office, and his reply was simple. God anointed me, no man may strip me from this office.

    Now, my question to you is the following? If God did not appoint Klibbe, and until today all the OAC members strive for a better life, and they live good according to scriptures, will they receive the Kingdom of God? Forget about the officers etc for a moment, look at their daily lives, OAC members in general live very good and Godly lives. Do you think they will receive the Kingdom of God.

    Next Question. If God has indeed annointed Klibbe, and you question his authority, how much hope do you think there is for you, please read Heb 4:6.

    Godly love and regards.

  88. Sister Vee

    i just love my church no matter who says what about it. Nna ke tshela ka lefoko baratwa.

  89. Johan

    WAT ELKEEN VAN DIE OU APOSTELKERK “MOET” WEET!!

    (wees gewaarsku!!)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “Waarom ken julle my spraak nie? Omdat julle na my woord nie kan luister nie. Julle het die duiwel as vader, en die begeertes van julle vader wil julle doen. Hy was ’n mensemoordenaar van die begin af en staan nie in die waarheid nie, omdat daar in hom geen waarheid is nie. Wanneer hy leuentaal praat, praat hy uit sy eie, omdat hy ’n leuenaar is en die vader daarvan. Maar omdat Ek die waarheid spreek, glo julle My nie.” (JOHANNES 8:43-45).
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~”Wees nugter en waaksaam, want julle teëstander, die duiwel, loop rond soos ’n brullende leeu, en soek wie hy kan verslind.” (I PETRUS 5:8).

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    As n mens die naam Apostolies hoor, moet n mens duidelik onderskei tussen
    die Apostoliese Geloofsending wat n Christelike en n charismatiese Kerk is
    en die Apostelkerke (Ou- en Nuwe) wat nie-Christelike kerke is.
    Laasgenoemde
    twee groepe glo nog aan die voortsetting van die Apostelamp. Wie iets wil
    weet van hierdie groep, wil na hul kategismus gaan. Die Kategismus is egter
    baie kort en handel hoofsaaklik oor die wese van die apostelamp.

    In die voorwoord word die leser egter voorberei dat as al sy vrae dalk nie
    in die Kategismus beantwoord word nie, dit is omdat die leerstelling van
    Die
    Ou Apostoliese Kerk te omvattend is om in skrif uiteengesit te word. Die
    Teologie van hierdie groep is dus grotendeels nie op skrif te vinde nie,
    maar in mondelinge oorleweringe, hul gesangeboek en in die varierende
    praktyk van gemeentes en gemeentelede. Dit is wat dit baie moeilik maak om
    die groep na te vors.

    ONTSTAAN.
    Die stigter was die Skotse prediker, Edward Irving (gebore in 1792). Hy het
    vurig gepreek dat die einde van die wêreld naby is en dat die Kerk
    swaar gesondig het deur nie al die ampte van Efes. 4:11 in te stel nie –
    veral ook die Apostelamp. Hierdie amp moes gou herstel word, voor die
    wederkoms sodat die apostel die gelowiges kon verseël tot saligheid.
    In 1835 vind die wyding en afsondering van die eerste 12 apostels plaas.Die
    kerk brei uit na Europa – veral na Duitsland. In 1865 vind daar n
    afsplintering plaas oor die vraag of daar meer as 12 apostels benoem kan
    word. Hulle word genoem die .

    Hierdie Nuwe Apostoliese Kerk sit in 1892 voet aan wal in die Kaap in die
    persoon van Evangelis Klibbe en hy vestig die Kerk hier. Klibbe is egter
    vir
    n vergadering na Duitsland. In sy afwesigheid neem ene Schlaphoff tydelik
    waar. Die boot waarmee hy sou gaan, het egter vergaan. Schlaphoff het
    gemeen
    dat Klibbe in die ramp oorlede is. Klibbe het egter met n ander boot
    vertrek
    as wat gemeen is. As Klibbe dus terugkeer weier Schlaphoff om van sy
    apostelskap afstand te doen oa agv. finansiële voordele van die amp.

    Dit lei na n hofsaak (1926). n Skeuring vind plaas en n nuwe kerk kom tot
    stand. Die regter bepaal dat die naam, die Ou Apostelkerk sal wees met
    Klibbe as die apostel. Die Ou Apostelkerk is dus n latere afsplintering en
    die Nuwe Apostelkerk is die oorspronklike kerk. Behalwe vir sekondêre
    verskille,is die twee kerke vandag nog baie dieselfde maar baie vyandig
    teenoor mekaar.

    DIE AMPTE.
    Hulle het sewe ampte wo. in volgorde: onder-diaken, priester, oudste,
    profeet, opsiener, evangelis, apostel. Die leraarsamp is afgeskaf. Verder
    is
    n aantal nie-Bybelse ampte bygevoeg soos onder-diaken en oudste. In die
    plaaslike gemeente is dit veral die oudste wat in samewerking met die
    priester die ampsdraers kies. Geen ampsdraer kry Teologiese opleiding nie.

    Die ampsdraers word ook nie betaal deur die kerk nie omdat hulle glo dat
    die
    evangelie vry verkondig moet word (vgl. 1 Kor.9:14). Om die rede is al hul
    amptenare in siviele werke. Die enigste uitsondering hier is die apostel
    wat
    finansieel baie goed versorg word en luukse voordele geniet. Hulle verwerp
    ook die titels, pastoor en dominee as onbybelse benaminge.
    Die totale struktuur van die kerk is outoriteit van aard. In orde van
    belangrikheid oorheers die een amp die volgende amp. Vir die persoon wat
    baie verwerping ervaar het, soos bv. die weeshuis kind, ervaar aanvaarding
    hier. Die status en magsposisie gee sulke mense n gevoel van eie waarde en
    posisie in die lewe.

    ROL VAN DIE APOSTEL.
    1. Die gesag van die Bybel is ondergeskik aan die gesag van die Apostel.
    Die apostel se woord het baie meer gesag as die Bybel. Die Bybel is net n
    dooie letter wat dood maak. Slegs die woord van die apostel gee lewe. Dis
    nie vreemd as ‘n priester na die Bybel wys en sê: Dit is nie die Woord
    van God nie ! Die Woord van God is die Woord wat uit die mond van n lewende
    apostel kom. As die apostel spreek, spreek hy met Goddelike gesag. Die
    Bybel
    is vir hulle bloot n versameling van goddelike beloftes, gebooie en dade
    wat
    deur n groep gelowiges saamgestel is. Die Bybel is natuurlik heel nuttig
    maar kan nooit die apostels se woord vervang nie.
    Kategismus vraag 37 vra:Kan die skrifte ons saligheid en die ewige lewe
    gee?
    Ant.: Nee….. Die Apostels is immers die lig van die nasies gemaak, sodat
    hulle tot redding sal wees tot aan die einde van die aarde(Kat.vr. 11b).
    Die
    Kategismus, vr.35, stel dit so: Wie is gestuur om die woord van God te
    predik? Ant. Die apostels, soos blyk uit 1 Thes. 2:13…….

    2. Die apostel beheer die toegang tot die Hemel.

    Die apostel het die mag om n siel te verseël tot ewige saligheid (maw
    om te wederbaar), of om die Hemel te sluit vir iemand. Dit is n gesagvolle
    handeling wat selfs die Pous van Rome die apostel kan beny, aldus dr.Jac
    Muller. Die ooreenkoms tussen die Ou Apostels en die Rooms-Katolieke Kerk
    is
    opsigtelik.
    Deur die apostel alleen is daar redding en aan die wat deur die apostels in
    Christus glo(Kat. vr. 36&49). Aan die apostels alleen is dit gegee om die
    verborgenhede van die Koninkryk van die hemele te ken (Kat.vr.5& 50 e&f).
    Iemand kan net tot geloof kom deur die woord wat die apostel preek. Dit is
    eintlik onmoontlik om tot geloof te kom sonder die apostels. Hulle
    sê:
    So kan niemand die Vader of Christus sien as hulle nie die apostel aanneem
    nie, want: Wie julle ontvang, ontvang Hom wat My gestuur het(Mat.10:40).
    Die
    apostel is eintlik die enigste wat God die Vader ken (Kat.vr.24), wat die
    wysheid van God spreek (Kat.vr.50e), met wie God van aangesig tot aangesig
    praat (Kat. vr 25), wat die Skrifte verstaan (Kat.vr.38), wat sondes
    vergewe
    (Kat.vr.47), en wat die wêreld gaan oordeel (Kat.vr.41).

    3. Die apostel is die plaasvervanger van Jesus Christus op die aarde.

    Soos die Pous by die Rooms Katolieke Kerk, so is die apostel die Godgewilde
    plaasvervanging van Jesus Christus in die vlees. Hulle is die fondament
    waarop Christus Sy Kerk gebou het en daarom is alle ander kerke valse
    kerke.
    Die apostelamp vervang eintlik die middelaarskap van Jesus Christus. n Mens
    se sondes kan nie verlos word deur n onsigbare Christus nie. Toe Jesus
    opgevaar het na die Hemel, het Hy eintlik opgevaar in die apostels. Hy is
    nou sigbaar in die apostels. Want n ander versoening met God is daar nie,
    as
    alleen deur die genade en die apostelamp, so word geleer. Die apostels
    verrig die volgende take: Hy verseël met die Heilige Gees en lyf
    hulle
    die liggaam van Christus in. Die verseëling is gelykstaande aan
    wedergeboorte. Daarsonder kan niemand in die Hemel kom nie. Hy vergewe ook
    sondes, hy doop met water en Gees, hy kies die ampte. Die term
    wedergeboorte
    gebruik hulle egter glad nie en hulle preek nie daaroor nie. Hulle praat
    van
    ‘wederomgebore’.

    4. Die apostel is ook die enigste wat kan vervloek.

    Mense wat uit die Apostel Kerk padgee staan gevaar om vervloek te word.
    Sulke getuienisse is beskikbaar. Bettie’ het uit die Apostel Kerk bedank.
    Hulle het haar vervloek. Sy het later heeltemal van haar kop af geraak en
    gesterf. Sommige voormalige Ou Apostels beweer dat dit die rede is waarom
    mense nie maklik uit die kerk padgee nie – uit vrees dat iets soortgelyk
    hulle sal oorkom !

    WAT SÊ DIE BYBEL VAN DIE APOSTELAMP ?

    Daar is verskil van opinie in Christelike kerke of die amp van Apostel nog
    reg op voortbestaan het, aldan nie. In sommige Charismatiese kerke word die
    amp nog erken. Dit is egter nie so belangrik nie nl. of daar nog so n amp
    moet wees of nie. Wat egter pla is die gesag wat aan so n amp verleen word
    nl. dat die Apostel Jesus se plek ingeneem het.
    Ons lees in 2 Kor.12:12: Die kentekens tog van n apostel is onder julle
    verwerklik met alle volharding deur tekens en wonders en kragtige dade. Toe
    Petrus se skaduwee op mense val, het hulle gesond geword. Paulus gooi sy
    bo-kleed op iemand en hy word gesond. Die apostels in die Bybel se lewens
    is
    gekenmerk deur krag en n heilige lewenswandel. Waar is die tekens en
    wonders
    en heilige lewenswandel van die hedendaagse apostels ? Paulus sê in
    Gal 1:1: Paulus n apostel nie vanweë mense of deur n mens nie, maar
    deur Jesus Christus en God die Vader…. In Matt.24:5&24 waarsku Jesus dat
    daar mense in die laaste dae navore sal kom wat sê: Ek is die
    Christus, en hulle sal baie mense mislei.
    Die fondament van die Kerk van Jesus is nie die apostel nie, maar Jesus
    Christus self.
    Van Paulus se laaste briewe was die brief aan Timoteus. In hierdie briewe
    praat hy net van die aanstellingvereistes van ouderlinge en diakens.

    ROL VAN DIE PRIESTER.
    Die man, as die hoof van die huis word beskou as die
    ‘huispriester'(gewoonlik ‘huispriest’ genoem). Sy gesin se saligheid word
    deur hom bepaal (Kat.vr.53). Wat die priesteramp self betref, is n ouer of
    kind aan die totalitêre gesag van die priester onderdanig. Tov. die
    kind is die gesag van die priester selfs hoër as die van die ouer.
    Die
    priester word geweldig gerespekteer. Vir Sonet het dit gevoel asof n kind
    eintlik nie n ouer nodig het nie. As kind moes sy vir alles die toestemming
    van die priester kry. Of dit nou vir n maat vir die matriekafskeid is, of
    toestemming om na n kamp te gaan, die priester moet eers geraadpleeg word.
    Haar ouers self kon nie met vakansie gaan sonder die toestemmingsbriefie
    van
    die priester nie. Medisyne vir wanneer hulle siek was kon ook nie help nie
    as dit nie deur die priester geseën is nie. n Besigheidstransaksie
    sal
    nie gedoen word voordat die priester nie sy goedkeuring gegee het nie.
    Wanneer hulle praat van gehoorsaamheid, word daarmee dan ook nie bedoel
    gehoorsaamheid aan die Woord van God nie, maar gehoorsaamheid aan die
    ampte.
    Wat hulle spreek is die woord van God. As die priester bv nee sê, dan
    aanvaar hulle daardie woord as die woord van God.
    Elke eerste Sondag van die maand is nagmaal en dan steek die priester sy
    hand uit oor die gemeente en sê: Die sonde wat julle gedoen het,
    wetende en onwetende, word julle vergewe. Hulle gebruik Joh.20:23: As julle
    die mense hulle sondes vergewe, dan word dit hulle vergewe…. Alhoewel
    aanvaar word dat net die Apostel kan vergewe, word aanvaar dat die priester
    die apostel verteenwoordig soos wat die Apostel Christus verteenwoordig.

    WAT SÊ DIE BYBEL VAN DIE PRIESTERAMP?

    Die priesteramp het egter geen bestaansrede in die Nuwe Testament nie. In
    die O.T. het die priester op voorskrifte van God self sekere kenmerkende
    kleredrag gedra. Die werksopdrag was ook duidelik nl. diens in die tempel,
    die bring van offers, mediese diens (Deut.24:8) en soms regspraak.
    In Heb.7 word vir ons gesê dat die Ou Testamentiese priesteramp net
    vooruit gewys het na en vervul is in Jesus se priesterlike werk. In
    Heb.7:24
    word verder gesê:Maar Hy…..besit n priesterskap wat nie op ander
    oorgaan nie. Past. Muller wat eers in die kerk was, vra waar die
    hedendaagse
    priesters vandaan kom en wys daarop dat die hedendaagse apostels nie
    nageslag is van Aaron, Dawid, Melchisedek of van die leviete nie. Hulle is
    ook nie aangetrek soos die O.T. priesters nie ! Jesus het ook nie Priesters
    aangestel nie !
    Jesus se in Matt. 22:29: Julle dwaal, omdat julle die Skrifte nie ken nie
    en
    ook nie die krag van God nie. Jesus het sy apostels geleer en Hy gee ook
    die
    opdrag dat ons geleer moet word. 2 Tim.2:2: Wat jy van my gehoor
    het…..vertrou dit toe aan getroue manne wat bekwaam sal wees om ook ander
    te leer. Die Ou Apostelkerk glo nie in opleiding van sy ampsdraers nie. Die
    ongelooflike duisternis waarin die kultus is, is juis agv.n gebrek aan
    opleiding en n gebrek aan kennis van die Bybel. Gal 1:8: Maar al sou ons of
    ‘n engel uit die Hemel julle n Evangelie verkondig in stryd met die wat ons
    julle ontvang het, laat hom n vervloeking wees !

    SAKRAMENTE.
    Hulle ken drie sakramente nl. doop, nagmaal en verseëling. Aldrie die
    sakramente kan ten behoewe en tot heil van die afgestorwenes ontvang word.

    Hulle beoefen die besprinkelingsdoop. Die doop is ook verbind aan die
    dooies.
    Hulle haal 1 Kor. 15:29 aan om hulleself te verweer. Wat hulle nie
    verstaan is dat hierdie teks praat van dwaalleraars wat mense vir die
    dooies
    laat doop het.
    Tydens die verseëlingsdiens word een van die viervoudige ampte (nl. ‘n
    profeet, opsiener of evangelis ) namens die dooies gedoop en verseël.

    DIE NAGMAAL.
    Dit word eenmaal n maand bedien en elke driemaande word n kinderdiens gehou
    waartydens alle kinders, selfs babas, met die nagmaal bedien word.

    DIE VERSEËLING.
    Eenmaal n jaar is daar n verseëling (spreektaal-verzechelings’)
    diens.
    Verseëling het te doen met die opneem van n persoon in die gemeente,
    met die ontvangs van die Heilige Gees en is gelykstaande aan wedergeboorte.
    Die verseëling is volgens pastoor Muller die grootste dwaling van die
    apostels. By die geleentheid kry die ouers n wit doek op die kop. Dan word
    ‘n
    kruis met olie op die kind gemaak en gebruik hy die nagmaal. Die voorganger
    sal dan sê:God die vader verseël jou. Tydens die geleentheid
    ontvang ‘n persoon uit die hand van die apostel die vervulling met die
    Heilige Gees . Jy kan nie in die Hemel kom sonder die ‘merk’ nie. Die merk
    is die verzecheling deur die Apostel, – aldus een van hulle (Kat.vr.54-58).

    WAT SÊ; DIE BYBEL VAN DIE VERSEËLING?
    Die verseëling is volgens hul kategismus gelykstaande aan
    wedergeboorte en die Doop met die Heilige Gees. Dit kan op enige ouderdom
    plaasvind as albei die ouers in die apostelkerk is. Jy kan die Heilige Gees
    ontvang slegs deur die handoplegging van die apostel. Mense sal in n ry
    staan en dan sal die apostel net sê: Recieve the Holy Ghost. Hulle
    gebruik Hand 8:16 om dit te staaf.
    Tog is daar net twee plekke in die Bybel waar mense die Heilige Gees deur
    handoplegging ontvang het. Hand.10:44 sê dat …terwyl Petrus nog
    praat, het die Gees op almal gekom.. Die Heilige Gees het dus ook op mense
    gekom deur die aanhoor van die Woord. Lukas 11:13 se jy kan die Heilige
    Gees
    ontvang as jy daarom vra !

    DIE KERK.
    Hulle het n eksklusiewe kerk begrip. Hulle het oor die algemeen n baie
    vyandige houding teen alle ander kerke en predikante. Hulle glo dat die Ou
    Apostel-lidmate die enigstes is wat in die Hemel gaan kom (Kat.vr.2&3)
    omdat
    net hulle kerk op die fondament van die apostels gebou is. Preke (hulle
    noem
    dit n ‘belering’) word of deur die onder-diaken, priester of die oudste
    gebring. Preke word nie voorberei nie. Lidmate bring ook nie hulle Bybels
    kerk toe nie. Indien wel word jy berispe omdat jy dan daarmee impliseer dat
    jy nie die ‘woord’ van die voorganger aanvaar nie. Daarom word die Bybel
    selfs ook nie by hul huise gelees nie.
    Sommige meen eenmaal n ou apostel, altyd n ou apostel. Een van die grootste
    sondes is om die kerk te verlaat. As een in die familie die kerk sou
    verlaat, kan allerlei onheil en ongeluk wat daarna gebeur, aan die
    kerkverlater se deur gelê word. Toe Sonet se broertjie dood is in n
    ongeluk, is Sonet die skuld gegee omdat sy uit die kerk gedros het. Daarna
    is bygevoeg:Nou sal meer dinge verkeerd gaan omdat jy uit die kerk is.

    DROME.
    Hulle moet die droom dadelik neerskryf en vir die priester gee. Sonet droom
    bv. dat sy trou (sy is reeds n getroude vrou!) Die priester sê dit
    beteken dat sy geen sielsaligheid’ het nie. Sy sal God nooit ontmoet nie.
    Die uitleg het hy gegee nadat sy teen haar ouers se wense uit die kerk is.
    In drome word boodskappe van afgestorwenes ontvang.
    By die swartmense wat ou apostels is, is almal nog betrokke by die
    voorvadergeeste. As een sou droom van die voorvaders wat honger is, dan
    word
    dit bekend gemaak in die gemeente. Die priester se opdrag is dan aan die
    gemeente om huisbesoek te gaan doen en vir die mense te sê: Bekeer
    julle en dan sal die dooies hulle ook bekeer en deur die duiwel losgelaat
    word. Die dooies wat onbekeerd gesterf het, se lot word dus bepaal deur die
    bekering’ van die lewendes.
    Wanneer drome uitgelê word, word ook beweeg op die terrein van
    waarsêery en heldersiendheid omdat dit soms handel oor dinge wat jou
    gaan oorkom.

    PROFESIE.
    Enigeen kan ook elke Sondag profeteer. Die profesie is meestal baie
    algemene
    uitsprake en vermanings.

    ERFSONDE.
    n Kind totdat hy self tussen sy regter en linkerhand kan onderskei, het
    geen
    sonde nie en kan nie deur die duiwel aangeraak word nie.

    GEBED.
    Wanneer n lidmaat van die Ou Apostelkerk op reis wil gaan, of n besigheid
    wil open, gaan hy na die priester vir leiding en toestemming. Die antwoord
    wat hy kry by monde van die ampte is God se woord aan hom. God praat dus
    met
    hom deur die ampte. Om die rede het die lidmate van die Kerk geen
    gebedslewe
    nie. Wat jy nodig het, vra jy van die priester. Gebed word soos by die
    Rooms
    Katolieke Kerk begin en geeindig in die naam van die drie-eenheid.
    Wanneer die voorganger begin, lig hy sy hande op en sê:In die naam
    van
    die Vader, Seun en Heilige Gees, Amen. Hierop sal almal saam met n ‘amen’
    antwoord. Hierna sal hy oor algemene sake bid.
    Sommige meen dat as jy met iemand oor hul geloof gepraat het, dan het jy
    klaar gebid.
    Gebed kan ook as n vorm van swartmagie gebruik word teen jou vyande.
    In gebed word soms op n onverstaanbare wyse gebid, bv. terwyl hulle vir
    Sonet gebid het, het die priester gebid dat die verkeerde in haar lewe na
    die kerksaal sal gaan. Dan bind hy dit daar en sit n vuur om haar in sy
    gebed. Jonathan se tannie het ook n verkeerde gees in haar gehad. Met tye
    het sy geskreeu. Die priester sit toe in sy gebed ook n vuur om haar huis.

    VERLOSSING.
    Werke speel n baie belangrike rol. Elke aand het die gemeente n ander aksie
    wat bygewoon moet word. Maandagaand is dit getuienis of kragsel.
    Dinsdagaand
    is dit koor oefening. Woensdagaand het hulle biduur. Donderaand het hulle
    kragsel. Vrydagaand kooroefening. Saterdagaand is dit jeugaand. As jy nie n
    tiende van jou tyd aan die kerk se werke afstaan nie, verpas jy jou
    saligheid.
    As jy jou werke goed doen, verdien jy n amp. Geen klem word op bekering,
    die
    vrug van die Gees en heiligmaking gelê nie. n Breuk met die sonde is
    dus ook nie nodig nie! – alhoewel vir hulle eienaardig genoeg, sekere
    sondes
    soos seksuele oortredings, dans en vloektaal as verkeerd beskou word ! Mev.
    X wat gebore en grootgeword het in die kerk, sê dat sy nog nooit in
    al
    die jare in die kerk, n bekeringspreek gehoor het nie. Preke is meestal n
    moralisering oor n gedeelte waar daar soms selfs mooi dinge gesê
    word.

    Die Bybel word geestelik verklaar’. Volgens hulle is die Bybel dan baie
    meer
    verstaanbaar. Hulle doen dit so omdat God dan gees is en ons Hom in gees en
    waarheid moet aanbid. Die O.Testament se verhale is nie letterlike en
    geskiedkundige feite nie maar gelykenisse wat geestelike lesse het. Die
    N.Testament moet ook geestelik verklaar word.
    Hier is n paar voorbeelde:

    Hand. 1:9: Jesus vaar op na die Hemel. Jesus het glo nie letterlik opgevaar
    na die Hemel nie, dit moet geestelik verstaan word. Die ruimtereisigers was
    al daar bo en hulle kon niks daar bo kry nie! Jesus het opgevaar na die
    hart
    van die verstand – en dan wys hulle met die vinger na hul kop (Kat.vr.1&4).
    Werner vra vir die Ou Apostels lastige vrae: Beteken dit nou dat die
    voëls van die Hemel in jou kop rondvlieg, of dat die sterre van die
    Hemel nou in jou kop is ? Volgens hulle kategismus is die hemel nie n
    letterlike plek nie maar n toestand van sielerus, saligheid en
    vrede….(Kat.vr.17)
    Maar in die Bybel lees ons egter: En toe hulle nog stip na die Hemel kyk
    terwyl Hy weggaan.. sê die engel…Hy sal net so kom soos julle Hom
    na
    die hemel sien wegvaar het. Muller wys daarop dat hulle nie in hulle koppe
    ingekyk het nie, maar na die Hemel.(vgl. Op.1:7)
    Hulle se OOK daar is geen hel nie. Hel is nie n letterlike plek waar mense
    brand nie maar n rondswerf in duisternis terwyl jou gewete jou voortdurend
    aankla. n Alkoholis wat te sterwe kom, het nou nie meer n liggaam om te kan
    drink nie. Nou gaan jou gees in die kroeë; in om te drink, maar jy kan
    nie drink nie. Hulle het geen besef dat die hel die volle teenwoordigheid
    is
    van God se toorn nie.

    Dit is n kerk sonder hoop. Daar is geen letterlike wederkoms van Jesus nie
    (vgl. Hand 1:11). Hulle spot graag: Hoeveel eeue is dit nie nou al dat
    julle
    se Jesus kom en tot nou het hy dan nog nie gekom nie!(Kat.vr.27 a&b).
    Wanneer die Ou-apostels, as die wolk van getuigenis mense by hulle huise
    besoek, dit is wanneer Jesus vir hulle kom’ (Kat.vr.29&31). Die Ou apostels
    vergeet wat staan in 2 Pet.3:3-4: …dat daar in die laaste dae mense…wat
    die spot dryf…en sê: En wat het nou geword van die belofte van sy
    wederkoms? Wat ook nie duidelik is, is waarom hulle nog die nagmaal gebruik
    nie want in 1 Kor 11:26 lees ons: Elke keer as julle hierdie brood eet en
    die beker drink, verkondig julle die dood van die Here totdat Hy kom.

    Sonde het vir hulle heeltemal n ander betekenis. Rook en drank en selfs
    ander sondes in die liggaam verrig is nie n probleem nie, want dit is in
    die
    vlees. Dit is sondes in die gees waarteen gewaarsku word. Wat daarmee
    bedoel
    word is nie altyd duidelik nie.
    Die Bybel wys ons egter daarop dat die laaste oordeel gaan plaasvind op
    grond van wat ons in die vlees gedoen het !( 1 Kor.6:12-20) Alhoewel daar
    ook onder hulle mense is wat skoon’ lewe, is die Ou-Apostel lidmate mense
    met baie probleme .

    Alles in die Bybel moet vergeestelik word. Jy kan niks letterlik opneem
    nie.
    Daarom verwerp hulle ook bv. die historiese verhaal van Noag. Volgens hulle
    was dit onmoontlik om n vaartuig te bou wat al die diere kon neem. En omdat
    hulle dit nie met hulle verstand kan verstaan nie, moet hierdie en
    soortgelyke verhale geestelik verklaar word en nie letterlik nie. Sulke
    verhale is opgeteken om geestelik vertolk te word. Geestelike taal is die
    taal van God.

    DIE SPIRITISTIESE KARAKTER VAN DIE KERK.
    Die groot probleem met die Ou Apostelkerk is die verbintenis wat dit het
    met
    die afgestorwenes. Hierin is die kerk op gelyke vlak met die Roomse-,
    Mormoonse-, Spiritistiese- en ander kerke soos selfs die kerk van die
    satan.
    Hierdie groepe glo dat die lewendes wel nog kontak kan maak met die dooies
    en omgekeerd. Verder leer hulle dat mense wat ongered gesterf het, wel na
    die dood gered kan word. Die dwaalleer word gestaaf deur tekste soos
    Ef.4:8-10 en 1 Pet.3:18-20 & 4:6. Eenmaal n jaar, is daar n ‘versechelings’
    diens. Dan besoek die apostel van die wyk (bv. die apostel van Tvl.) die
    gemeente. By die diens word die doderyk vir die dooies oopgesluit. Tweedens
    gaan die profeet by die geleentheid verklaar wie in die diens is (geeste),
    vir wie die Hemel oopgesluit word. Daarna gaan die nagmaal,
    verseëling
    en doop bedien word aan die dooies wat in die diens teenwoordig is.
    Pastoor Muller vertel van sy ervaring by n diens in Klerksdorp. Die apostel
    het eers verklaar: Met die mag wat aan my gegee is, sluit ek die doderyk
    oop. Daarna staan die profeet op en sê: Profeet, Danie Theron en sy
    40
    manskappe is vanoggend in die diens. Hulle soek ingang. Die apostel steek
    toe sy hand in die lug met n oopsluit beweging en sê:Ek sluit die
    Hemel vir hulle oop. Daarop reageer die profeet as volg: Ek sien hulle die
    hemel in marsjeer. Kyk hoe inkonsekwent is hulle, sê Muller. Die een
    oomblik sê hulle die hemel is in jou kop, en dan erken hulle weer
    daar
    is n plek soos die Hemel.
    Nêrens in die Bybel kan die Ou Apostels egter aantoon dat Jesus aan
    hulle die sleutels van die doderyk gegee het nie. Net Jesus het daardie
    sleutel. Jesus sê in Op.1:18: Ek het die sleutels van die doderyk en
    die dood… Volgens Matt.23:13 kan iemand vir n ander die hemel toesluit
    deur n verkeerde of valse evangelie aan hom te verkondig en nie deur ‘n
    ampsdraer wat n sluitbeweging in die lug maak en n paar magiese woorde
    prewel nie !!
    Die apostel beweer dat hy die sleutels van die doderyk dra en by die
    geleentheid sluit hy die hemel oop vir die dooies om in te gaan. Die
    geredde
    dooies kry die geleentheid om die verlore dooies na die troon van genade te
    lei. In die Nuwe Apostoliese Kerk word op daardie bepaalde dae die soekende
    dooies se geeste deur die distriks-apostels na die een diens deur die
    hoof-apostel gelei, gestuur. Dan bedien die hoofapostel die drie sakramente
    aan twee ampsdraers in die plek van die soekende dooies. Op die wyse word
    die soekende dooies se sondes vergewe.
    Henry vertel van sy bywoning van n begrafnis in Kimberley. In sy gebed by
    die graf, het die priester gebid: Here, maak nou asb die hemel vir hierdie
    vrou oop want sy is besig om hier rond te sweef en sy soek nou ingang.

    Ek het in die Ou-Apostelkerk grootgeword. Ek was baie lief vir my oupa. Toe
    ek in std.5 was, was ek een Sondag in die diens. Ek het iemand na my hoor
    roep. Ek het omgekyk en my oorlede oupa in die deur sien staan. Toe ek weer
    kyk, was hy weg. Toe ek buite kom , het hy buite gestaan. Hy het na my
    gekyk, geglimlag en weggestap. Ek het begin huil en aan my ma alles vertel.
    Sy het aan die priester vertel dat my oupa my kom groet het. Die volgende
    Vrydag is my oupa wat in die Kaap gebly het, oorlede.
    Wat met Mev M. gebeur het, is n algemene ervaring in die Ou Apostel Kerk.
    Wat sê die Bybel van so n ervaring ? As iemand n oorledene kan sien’,
    kan hoor praat of op enige wyse met geeste kan kommunikeer, dan het so n
    persoon ongetwyfeld n groot demoniese probleem. So n persoon word volgens
    die Bybel n medium of n Heks genoem. n Persoon wat waarlik vrygemaak is,
    het
    nie die vermoë; om geeste te sien nie.

    n Baie misverstane gedeelte in die Bybel is 1 Sameul 28. Daar lees ons die
    verhaal van koning Saul se besoek aan so n Heks. As gevolg van hierdie
    groot
    sonde sou God hom later doodmaak (1 Kron.10:13-14). Saul vra dat sy Sameul
    vir hom moet oproep. Uit die verhaal self is dit egter duidelik dat die
    ontmoeting met oorlede Sameul, nie met Sameul self was nie, maar met
    BOSEGEESTE WAT HULLE VOORGEDOEN HET AS SAMEUL:
    Die Heks beweer dat sy Sameul sien, maar Saul het hom nie self gesien nie.
    Die Heks beweer dat sy n ou man met n mantel om sien (vs.14). In die Hemel
    is daar tog nie ouderdom of siekte nie! Die liggaam is begrawe en het tot
    stof teruggekeer.
    Die Heks beweer dat hy uit die aarde uitkom (vs.13). Nêrens leer die
    Bybel dat die gees van die mens na die aarde terugkeer nie. Dit keer na God
    terug. Daarom vaar Jesus op na die Hemel. Daarom se Hy vir die rower aan
    die
    kruis:’Vandag sal jy saam met My in die Paradys wees’. As Sameul ooit
    verskyn het, sou dit uit die Hemel gewees het. Dit is die heidense begrip
    dat die dooies in die onderwereld onder die aarde is.
    As Sameul praat dan praat hy die taal van n ongelowige: Waarom verontrus jy
    my.(vs.15). In die Hemel kan jy tog nie gepla word nie!
    Verder is dit duidelik uit die verhaal dat God besluit het dat Hy Saul nie
    gaan antwoord nie – nie deur die profete of deur drome of deur die Urim nie
    (vs.6). Waarom sal Hy hom nou deur n Heks antwoord?
    Alle ander Bybelse getuienis bewys verder dat dit onmoontlik is vir die
    dooies om met die lewendes te kommunikeer. Die rykman word geweier as hy
    versoek dat iemand sy broers op die aarde gaan waarsku (Luk. 16:19-31).
    Daar
    rus n vloek op mense wat kontak met die dooies maak (Deut.18:11;
    Jes.8:9,19-22; Lev.19:31; 20:6,27; Jer 27:9). Wat werklik gebeur het was
    dat
    Saul kontak met BOSEGEESTE gehad het wat hulleself voorgedoen het as Sameul
    (vgl 2 Kor.11:14). Verder maak die duiwel gebruik van sy meerdere’ kennis
    om
    vir Saul te sê wat die volgende dag gaan gebeur. Vir God is dit so n
    groot sonde dat Saul met dooies (dit was demone!) kontak gemaak het, dat Hy
    Saul doodgemaak het (1 Kron 10:13-14).
    Wat God egter haat, word elke Sondag in die Ou Apostelkerk beoefen. Wat
    Sangomas, Sataniste, heidense toordoktors en blanke Gypsy’s en
    fortuinvertellers elke dag beoefen, nl. om kontak met die dooies te maak,
    word in ‘n sogenaamde Christelike Kerk’ elke Sondag beoefen.
    Deur drome word boodskappe van die dooies oorgedra aan die lewendes. Wat
    Swartmense ervaar wat nog betrokke is by voorvaderaanbidding nl om gereeld
    van sy oorlede familie te droom, gebeur ook onder Ou Apostellidmate.
    Hierdie
    kontak met die dooies maak van die kerk n kultus, n okkulte- en
    anti-christelike groep.

    OPSOMMING:
    1. Op grond van die spiritistiese karakter van die beweging, sy
    verloëning van Christus en die Bybel; agv die status, magsposisie en
    die verafgoding van die apostel; op grond van hul verhouding met die
    dooies,
    hul Skrifbeskouing, is dit duidelik dat ons nie hier met n Christelike Kerk
    te doen het nie. Dit is n kultus omdat die groep nie meer op die basis van
    die Woord van God (Die Bybel) staan nie, maar op die woord van die apostel.

    2. As gevolg van die sogenaamde ‘geestelike’ verklaring van die Bybel, verloor die
    Bybel sy eintlike letterlike en praktiese boodskap en krag. Die Bybel word
    n
    boek met minder waarde as die woord’ van die apostel. En die bietjie wat
    nog
    oorbly word vergeestelik’. Vergeesteliking vervreem en verwyder die Bybel
    uit die praktyk van die lewe. Om die rede word die groep nie juis gekenmerk
    as Bybelstudente nie. Hulle word ook nie aangemoedig om die Bybel self te
    lees nie. Daarom word hulle lidmate ook nie gekenmerk aan heilige en reine
    lewenswandel nie.

    3. As gevolg van die verbintenis van die sakramente in die Apostelkerk het
    met die dooies, kan die doop van die Ou -Apostelkerk nie aanvaar word nie.
    Mense wat in die Ou Apostoliese Kerk gedoop is, sal hul doop moet afsweer
    as
    hulle tot bekering kom en moet weer gedoop moet word.

    4. Mense wat n Ou Apostel agtergrond of kontak gehad het, behoort vir
    bevryding te gaan na iemand wat weet hoe om bevryding te doen. Sy doop en
    verseëling moet ook bely en afgesweer word voordat daar vir hom
    gebid word.

    5. Ou Apostels wat tot bekering kom, moet n nuwe geestelike tuiste soek
    omdat ons het hier met n kerk’ te doen waar die Gees van God nie is nie en
    wat nie n idee het van wedergeboorte en bekering nie. Dit is n groep met n
    baie verwarrende en dubbelsinnige teologie wat net deur geestelike’ uitleg
    verstaan kan word.
    gjdutoit1@gmail.com

  90. Bible Believer

    Dear: Another OAC Member

    You said,” I have studied the old afrikaans translation, the king james and the direct translation from aramic to english.”

    the part where it says
    …. aramic to english…..
    The New Testament was written in Greek not Aramaic

    You lied when you said you took the direct translation. Allmost none of the Bible books were written in Aramaic.

    Aramaic and Greek are two different languages, please do not tell us false statements when you try to prove the OAC.

    This is the Bible:
    εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
    That is not Aramaic.

    Look up the “Rylands fragment” in google, you will find how the origonal bible language looked like.

  91. Bible Believer

    Hello dear sir.
    If you take take the Holy Communion spiritually(soul) and physically (naturally-strength) and mentally (mind) and whole-heartedly(heart) then why only be baptized with a spiritual Word?

    Deuteronomy 6:5 “You shall love the Lord Your GOD with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”

    Yours honestly seeking the Truth

    A servant

  92. Petrus

    Stel elke gees op die proef of dit wel van God is en met sulke bewerings soos die van Johan kan n mens sien dat sy kennis van die kerk maar min is.Ek is n trotse lidmaat van die ou apostoliese kerk en sal altyd een bly aangesien die skrif se ondersoek alle dinge en behou die goeie en ek het die goeie gekry in die OAC.En net n laaste die Apostel is slegs n dienskneg van God en nie God nie.Om sulke dinge kwyt te raak pas nie by n ware dienskneg nie Terloops ek is n Priester in die kerk en dink nie ek is God nie maar slegs n dienkneg van God.

  93. former OAC member

    2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    Maybe you should explain to me the above scripture. What is “All Scripture” ?

    Can I use scripture to get through life without the advice of another man?

    To become thoroughly equipped for every good work and to be complete, do I have to follow anything else?

    • Lourence van namibia

      Ask OAC members in your vicinity. I hope and trust no OAC member will take part in this circuss you are trying to endeavour. Read again the answers you had been given by all OAC members and I quarentee you there is an answer. By the way, to all OAC members please translate this verse below in our heavens language Matthew 25:46 about the state of former OAC member’s mind and please underline the words” everlasting punishment”. This man is a dead man walking. Let him die forever, let us refrain from helping this fella on this platform. Father Abraham refused to help the Rich Man after his death , when the Rich man asked father Abraham to send someone to his fathers house. Father Abraham said ” They have Moses and prohets; let them hear them”. let him asked OAC members coming to his house. I believe the fella knows where our churh leaders are in his vicinity. he must not be a coward. Let us encourage him rather to go to them instead of feeding him on this platform.

  94. Dearly beloved,

    I am new to this facebook and hope you will bear with me.
    I am saddened by the the fact that there are those who
    still have the time to bicker over who has received what
    and who is a true Apostle and who is not.
    I humbly which to point out that as a member on the body of Christ you have received the Holy Spirit which enables you to discern the false prophet. Let us rise above this, as it is not from God.
    I invite all who are interested to join me in a very interesting study which will probably amaze many.
    I wish to present a few questions for you to ponder and
    assist in finding answers for.
    As members of the OAC, we speak a totally different language from that spoken by all the other churches, namely spirit. The fact that we speak spirit, sets us apart
    from the world and that is as it should be for we are in the world but not of the world.
    In my beginning was the Word. Let us look more closely at words and the true spiritual meanings.
    As a spiritual nation I ask you the following:
    Who is Eve really?
    Does Eve live for EVE-R?
    Was Eve the first terrestrial woman or is it a metaphor
    for the soul of man?
    What is an EV-ANGEL-IST
    What does the number s-eve-n signify?
    The name Adam originated from the Hebrew word adamah, meaning red ear-th. What does this imply.
    Which EAR-TH did God create in Genesis, the ear-th between the EARS of man or the natural planet.
    Let us unit in a greater understanding my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
    Please see my website or contact me on this blog.
    We are very privileged.

    • Another member of the OAC

       I’ve never really thought about it that way, anyway, u didn’t give us ur website, I’d seriously like to read more

  95. former OAC member

    Lourence: If you have read my replies above, you will see that I have asked these questions to OAC members from various congregations including the one in my area. They are unable to answer me.

    “This man is a dead man walking. Let him die forever, let us refrain from helping this fella on this platform.” A typical response from OAC members who are unable to answer simple questions.

    Pilgrim:
    Gen 2:21-23 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

    Questions:
    1: Read Gen 2:23. Did God create spirit out of flesh?
    2: What about when Eve conceived children? Are they also spirit?
    3: Genesis 2:24. How can a man and his soul become one flesh? Is my soul part of my flesh? What will then happen if my flesh dies?
    I have a 1000 more questions on your interpretation of the creation. But let’s deal with it step-by-step.

    regards
    former OAC member.

    • Lourence van namibia

      Arrange meetings with our office holders . Have those discussions about your concerns with them and let us rather know of about the outcome. Don’t be coward do that , if you are a man of your word.
      We all will be awaiting for your outcome. I am not a stupid AOC member who can feed you with anzas so you could re-use them in your own church and become a one eye King in the Kingdom of blinds. There is a saying in afrikaans ” meng jou met semels dan vreet die varke jou op” Ag! for me you can go to hell where you are.

  96. Bro. Michael B

    I can say this, that the Apostolic church began in the book of Acts, when the disciples continued steadfastly in the Apostles Doctrine, we Apostolics today still teach the same thing that was taught in the days of the Apostles, which if you allow me to also say, the words that are written in the bible, are and is, inspired by Jesus Christ our God.

    This Truth is Marching on.
    The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.

    • former OAC member

      Bro. Michael B:
      “we Apostolics today still teach the same thing that was taught in the days of the Apostles”
      I have to disagree with the above statement. If you read the book of Acts carefully, then you will see that you do not teach the same thing they had taught.

      “the words that are written in the bible, are and is, inspired by Jesus Christ our God.”
      Is there anything else you would like to add to this statement? What about 2 Cor 3:6 “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”

      If you believe what 2 Tim 3:16-17 says, then do you believe you need the Scriptures in order for you to be complete and thoroughly equipped?

    • Lourence van namibia

      Be careful, Bro Michael B , if you are a OAC member, this man wants to make use of the scriptures and interpretations you are giving in his church. Don’t be fooled by him ,beloved. You wo’nt get him nowhere. Please be kind and let him go to our church. He knows where it is. God says ” Don’t waist your time, energy to mingle with hogs”.

    • Lourence van namibia

      Lourence van namibia
      November 18, 2010 at 5:48 am
      Be careful, Bro Michael B , if you are a OAC member, this man wants to make use of the scriptures and interpretations you are giving in his church. Don’t be fooled by him ,beloved. You wo’nt get him nowhere. Please be kind and let him go to our church. He knows where it is. God says ” Don’t waist your time, energy to mingle with hogs”.

      Reply

  97. Frikkie

    Dagse aan almal, ek het nou al redelik tyd spandeer om al die posts te lees, en te bestudeer, ek sit in `n sinario waar my liefde van my lewe `n OAC is, wat ek weet voor my siel so verkeerd is, hoekom? want Die Woord (Bybel) se dit vir my, YHWH het my oe oop gemaak om die waarheid in die skrifte te lees, en dit te verstaan, ook maar net sekere deele, en gedeeltes, omdat ek nog jonk is, en moet nog baie leer en lees, aan die Apostolies wat hier post, sing soos jul wil, ek jamer, maar jul het geen standvastige standpunte nie, jyl haal heeltyd slegs uit Poulis se boeke uit, Wat weet jul van hom, Hy se self hy verspry sy eie evangelie, so wat se dit? dat jule `n man volg wat sy eie evangelie verspry? skrik asb, en skrik net wakker, die weg na die waarheid is `n smal paaikie, baie gaan hom verby stap, so mag julle oe oopgaan en jul dit nie verby stap nie, voordat dit te laat is, en ons Koning terug kom aarde toe, om te kom heers oor sy volk, en om die te kom oordeel, wat vals proferfeteer het onder sy volk. Die verseeling wil ek net aanraak, wie gee jul die reg om iemand te verseel? en wat verseel julle? wat se die skrif daarvan? in Openbaring staan daar geskrywe van die 144000 verseeldes. wat beteken dit. wie het hul verseel, dis die enigstes wat verseel gan word, en ons as mens maak nie saak wie jy dink jy is nie, het nie die mag om iemand te verseel nie, tensy jy `n bose gees in iemand vasvang en hom verseel binne die mens, om die waarheid van hom af weg te hou, maar jul weet jul tyd kom nader waar Vader YHWH jul gan kom veroordeel vir jul dade, en nee, ek oordeel nie, ek steun net dit wat die skrif my vertel. Met Vader YHWH se hulp, sal ek my Liefde bevry van Satan se magte, en haar die waarheid deurgee, so ook almal wat ek op my pad teekom, daar is net een Vader, en Hy is bo in die Hemel, en ja die hemel bestaan, so doen die hel ook, maar dis nie in gebruiking nie, dit ander dag se gesprek, Daar is net een Seun, en dit is YAHWEH YAHSHUA MESSIAS. Die wat hom ken, geseend is julle in sy groote naam, Sy gees is in ons ingeblaas, in elkeen van ons in, en dit jou keuse of jy jou siel of Sy gees wil laat heers in jou. Daar bestaan nie `n ding soos `n drie enige God nie, dit bog, die skrif se dit nie vir ons nie, Die skrif wys duidelik uit dat daar slegs 2 is, Vader en Seun. en as jy antwoorde soek oor die dinge wat ek vanmore hier plas, doen jouself `n guns en bestudeer die skrif, en maak soos Johan in die blog gese het, vra dat Vader YHWH se Gees sal oorvat bine in ou, en dat jy sy skrif kan neem en leer daaruit, met `n oope verstand. En dat jy verlos sal word uit die mense moordenaar se kloue. Geseend is die wat die vrugte pluk in die gesprekke en die egte pad volg, want ek het hier al hoe meer redes gesoen, hoekom om nie `n apostolie te wees nie, en nee ek gaan nie kerk nie, ek sit en luister nie na verdoeselde woorde wat oor my uitgespreek word, nie, stel nie belang in sonaanbidding nie.

    groete en seeninge,

  98. former OAC member

    @frikkie :
    1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    1Johannes 5:7 Want daar is drie wat getuig in die hemel: die Vader, die Woord en die Heilige Gees, en hierdie drie is een;

  99. Frikkie

    Ja. M.A.W hulle dink, en is en als is dieselfde, nie dat hulle een is nie, en `n vragie vir die OA. Wat is julle geloof sieninge?

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